Countryside Jobs Service - Discussion Board

Started in August 2002 as a place for countryside and environmental professionals to air their thoughts and feelings and to reply to the pleas / grumbles / whatever of others.

Each theme is now on a separate page with links back to this main Board and options to add your comments or new topics.

ADDITIONAL SECTION: The Main Discussion Board has become a place for long discussions (as intended) but we feel there is also scope for a Q&A section for people to ask simple questions and then wait for your feedback.

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Current Topics: click on a topic title to go straight to the discussion and on the Discussion Board Link to return to the main Board (ie here!) Or for suggested topics click here.

Colleges & Training - what are the colleges telling students? New thread on 30/8/05.

Countryside Careers. All things relating to a career in the countryside. Includes the threads: ● Volunteers get a raw deal.; ● Advice please...; ● Jobs overseas; ● Planning Ahead

Countryside Sites and problems. An eclectic mix of woes and queries! Includes the topics: ● Controlling Laurel; ● Comprehensive Performance Management (CPA); ● Teenagers and the Law.; ● Review after Review

Fox Hunting With the implementation of the Hunting Act 2004 on 19/2/05 unsurprisingly this is once again the hottest topic on the board, let's see your thoughts too.

Additional Skills & Graduate Recruitment. Includes the threads: - ● Driving Licence Essential?, ● Graduate Recruitment, ● Recent qualified with an Ecology Degree?, ● Which is best MSc or full time volunteer? ● The possibilities of weekend scientific volunteering, ● Should I do a PhD or not?

Projects and Funding - the problems of.... includes the threads: ●Best Value or Cheapest, ● Pay, conditions, health & safety and spare a thought for the poor contractor & ● Pity the Poor Project Officers.

NEW TOPICS

After going out to do plant survey work to help out a friend I am told I may be offered some further work. I am in a desperate state for money so this is unbelievable good news. But I don't know what rate of pay I should be expecting, I have been an amateur for 20 years but I have heard some stories about the potential employer (a local County Trust) being "ungenerous" with their wage agreements. So I would really appreciate some advice before they make me homeless, or I unknowingly undercut existing surveyors and cause a problem.

MIM asks: I would love to find a trainer in the Highland's of Scotland who would be prepared to take me on as a trainee in order to get a bat roost licence, having been interested in bats for many years (ever since I had a very close encounter at Brownies and got to stroke a pippestrelle (I know that wouldn't be allowed now but it was over 20 years ago). I would also like to find a ringer who would take me on as a trainee in order to get a bird ringing licence as I a very keen birder but I don't know where to start. I don't want to get either of these licences in order to make money, although I work in the environmental sector I want to obtain the licences for voluntary use.

I am confused about what other licences are needed for other protected species and how to obtain them. My idea is that a lot of crofters and householders in the Highlands may not have the money to pay for expensive surveys if they want to carry out small projects and if I’m working and being paid during the week I could do surveys for people in the evenings and weekends for free (or if a lot of travel was involved for petrol money). It would allow me to obtain the relevant experience I need to become a Chartered Environmentalist while giving something back to the local community.

Can anyone explain the licence system or tell me where I can find more information.

P from Burnley asks: I am on a course that does not include any kind of tractor/chainsaw work, though I have done tree planting, dry stone walling and that kind of thing. I am not really wanting a ranger job, but something more in the managerial side of things eg woodland project manager. I will be 39 when this course finishes. Am I being realistic or do I need to take a degree at any point? (not really possible unfortunately) (ref: BTEC)

I have recently been looking at all the adverts for upcoming jobs, and am annoyed at the wording of some of the criteria required for getting these positions.

This is AGE DISCRIMINATION. No person under the age of 27 can hold this driving licence. If the ability to tow a trailer over the weight of 750kg is the issue (which is why it is mentioned) then should these criteria not read: " Licence to tow trailers over 750kg (Standard on pre 1997 driving licences) "

With the way employers are currently addressing the issue, as a person who was way too young to obtain a Pre- 1997 licence, I find this wording creates a barrier. It suggests the employer is only interested in employing someone over the age 27. At the very least this wording needs to be changed.

The trailer towing test is expensive (£90 a pop) and that’s ignoring the £500 you could pay in tuition to pass the test, which for those of you who don't know, isn't just a test of your towing skills, but requires a higher overall standard of driving compared to the basic test.

I personally think it is quite discriminative to expect any prospective employee under the age of 27 to have paid to take this test out of their own pocket- this should be the employers responsibility. We cannot help when we were born, so for us to have to find £600 to pass this test (presuming you pass first time) before we have any prospect of finding employment or income is very frustrating- especially when we the majority of pre 1997 licence holders are no better trailer towers than we may be.

It’s hard enough already for recently qualified younger people to find jobs in this field- where you're expected to have qualifications such as Chainsaw as standard and to volunteer for long lengths of time with no real benefits. To make another high costing requirement for young applicants only makes it more difficult to feel confident when applying. Perhaps it's time employers agreed that holding a pre 1997 drivers licence is an unfair demand to make and should be something that is addressed post interview?

Here’s a comparison for you- is it fair to demand that a female applicant pays for their own toilet to be built before starting work in a previously all male workplace? or for a Disabled person to pay for any alterations required for them to access their workplace?

Does anyone know if applicants for jobs in haulage have to pay for their own HGV licence tuition and test before they apply? Any suggestions on how employers could deal with this issue? Details supplied (Ref: AD)

AB from Berkshire asks: Hi, I’ve spent the last four years doing estate work at a country park which I have enjoyed but now I want to move on, Next week I have an interview for a warden position at the national trust. I received my letter today confirming my interview, however being quite out of the loop for interviews, the letter mentions that there will be a practical assessment before the interview.

It gives no details other than the fact it won’t actually be digging and stuff, I have no experience of this type of interview/assessment can anyone let me know the sort of thing I can expect from the NT so I can at least do some swatting up? Thanks for your time! (ref: IVNT)

...In the last 6 months I have applied for dozens of jobs in the conservation/environment sector, the length and breadth of the country, to no avail!

When filling out app forms I can tick most of the relevant boxes from the job/person spec, but get no response.

In the past year I have gained my driving licence, chainsaw and pesticides certificates, I volunteer for both BTCV & Wildlife Trust every week. I have worked as an estate worker and gardener for the last few years and have worked with 'at risk' kids on motivational projects.

Can anybody give me an idea on how to get into this thing!!! My confidence and my wallet are starting to take the strain, I'm not sure if I can keep on volunteering, I need a job!

J F from Wellington wants to know: I am looking for someone who would be willing to give a training session on harvest mice and or small mammals to a group of trainee Survey and Planning Assistants at Somerset Environmental Records Centre. If interested please get in contact with me on judi_forsyth@hotmail.com (ref: TW)

CJS says: Have a look at the Fieldwork & Surveys page you may come across some contacts on there.

G from Enfield says: I am looking to set up a new course that gives top up skills for recently qualified people in the industry, who need those all important practical skills and certificates. What would you like to see on such a course (brushcutters, bat handling etc)? Please both employers and potential employees put in your ideas. Thanks (ref: PSC)

CJS says: Have a look at the Events Diary to see what is already out there to give you some further ideas.

G from Wales says: I'm a 3rd year student studying Wildlife Conservation. I'm currently planning my honours project which is about the impact of wild boar on woodland. If you have any first-hand experience of wild boar in woodland in your area, I would really like to hear from you about their impact - positive or negative. Or, if you know of any one who would be willing to help, perhaps you could put them in touch with me. Opinions are always valued, but I'm really looking for facts which can be substantiated please. Thanks (in hope). (ref: WB)

New on 17/2/06. Are professional bodies really worth the bother & should we have to join them?

A county council are currently advertising (15/2/06) a post in which it states that the post holder will need to be a full member of the IEEM. This is not listed as a desirable quality but given the same weighting as a degree level qualification. Since the IEEM, who I' sure do great work, are not a regulatory or, as far as I am aware, a body which awards any form of academic qualifications, should we be expected to fork out £110 a year in the hope of gaining employment? This council apparently requires BREEAM accreditation for its work, so even more disturbing is the possibility of having the choice of which jobs we can apply for dictated by yet another organisation!

We placed the above question on the CMA group discussion circular to see what it would throw up and the following opinions were circulated:

► SH says: I suspect that the IEEM tag is being used in the same way RTPI is for planners. A recognition of standard (you have to demonstrate certain qualifications and experience to become a member), an acceptance of working to a professional code of conduct, a commitment to CPD, and perhaps also an acceptance to look beyond the immediate (geographic, technical, temporal). Having paid out my money to IEEM for many years perhaps I see it as a recognition of my capabilities and a belief that a glib talking candidate will not get the job I may want without a proper check on their abilities. (I don't believe the referees process really investigates objectively someone's ability and whilst the interview process is improving it may not be rigorously applied everywhere.) It is also possible to take the very positive message that environmental qualities are now perhaps being accepted on a par with planning, engineering, accountancy skills etc. which have had similar requirements for years. That cross relates to the fascinating debate about managers in CMA (from one who has risen to those heady ranks from a beginnings as volunteer and ranger !)

► DD also comments: I have no experience of IEEM; however are professional bodies worth the bother, in my opinion......yes. CMA helps me to link up with other professionals in the same line of business especially important as I work alone rather than as a member of a large ranger team, it provides a source of continued professional development (sometimes...... there is only so much willow weaving you want to learn), and as an employer I would use membership as an indication of desire for the individual to want to be professional. The same can be said for ILAM membership, which for obvious reasons is more recognised at work if countryside or Greenspaces is part of your LA leisure department. ILAM is perhaps more remote in its approach to individuals but slightly ahead on the bigger issues than CMA. On the downside their CPD courses and membership is bl*@dy site more expensive.

► RC says: This is interesting. It could be a bit of a breakthrough as it is recognising that full membership of a professional body - in this case IEEM - carries with it an acknowledgement by the employer that the candidate has signed up to CPD through a membership organisation within a relevant discipline and has already reached a level of competence gained through several years of experience with (or possibly instead of) an academic qualification. It is also indicating that new graduates without experience need not apply! (Ref: PB-R1)

S from London asks: Does anyone know anywhere that I can exchange or just get interview questions that people have been asked. I have found a site at www.whatwilltheyask.co.uk which has been quite helpful but it is new and doesn't have enough on it.

After reading through the lengthy but eye opening debate on Fox Hunting [click here to view] and trying to sum up my thoughts on the matter, the only reasonable thought I can formulate is. Why on earth are some people so determined that the reintroduction of Wolves is a great idea. Haven't we got enough wildlife issues to debate about. Seems to me we can't cope with what we've got. Details supplied. (Ref: RW)

A National Diploma course is the equivalent of getting 3 'A' levels in a subject you could never do at school. Do employers really expect recent students with that level of qualification to be actually able to do anything very much? The NVQ Level 2 students ought to be a bit better (although they don't have to cover many varied units to get the qualification.) Our students do both which gives them a whole day of practical each week. ...and Degrees have never been about practical ability, that was called an HND in the old days.

I think we tend to make our choices on what route to follow depending on ability, inclination, parental influence, maturity etc at the ages of 16 or 18. Only a few people who don't have the ability to achieve at the younger ages on a Degree or HND level course will ultimately get to be in the better paid management jobs in later life. Most of those jobs will go to those who were educated to a higher standard earlier on in their lives. The whole volunteering/training scene benefits these people enormously as they can skip through the lower graded manual years fairly quickly if they have leadership/management abilities. I did! However, now I am living in a county with lots of jobs for troops and only project work for generals, it is the students with the lower level of qualification but the right attitude who are getting the jobs, albeit at very low wages. Details Supplied. (Ref: ND=A)

I am a Brit but have spent the past 10 years working in the environmental education sector in the SE US. I worked for one of the largest conservation non-profits in the country and was responsible for an area covering 8 states (about the size of Europe). Having read this I would say that wages in the States for comparable jobs are definitely (about 30%) higher while cost of living is up to 50% lower in rural areas. However, there are some risks as medical coverage can be very expensive indeed and even with 70% coverage, a person can be wiped out financially with one serious injury. The key seems to be to develop business skills and apply the environmental science education you have in a corporate setting (multi-disciplinary engineering/enviro design firms for example) if you want to stabilize finances. A good book to read on this life dilemma is 'Fire Your Boss' by Stephen Pollan. Details supplied (Ref: VFA)

I am well aware, having spoken to numerous people in conservation/env education, that it is much easier to get a job (or experience) if you are either female, an ethnic minority or disabled. Government quotas have to be met to ensure everything is 'equal'. This seems absurd to me, as surely the best person should be chosen rather than the best person of a particular age/sex etc. My partner (Brilliant biol degree, year vol work) has applied for hundreds of jobs, and been for many interviews where there were exactly half of each sex. On most occasions he was turned down for a female candidate with less experience and who was frankly unlikely to be good at the job (e.g. very small and frail, and unlikely to be good at putting in the required posts etc). It seems rather ridiculous. Also, I'm female, and am looking for a job in environmental education. But I want a job on my own merits, and would hate to get a job merely because I am female. I am aware of a woman working for a very prominent conservation volunteering organisation who was given a job on the basis of sex, and feels totally out of her depth especially as many of the male volunteers with much more knowledge and experience also went for the job. She isn't exactly well respected, and the job wasn't really right for her. Bad all round! How can we change this madness? Details supplied. (Ref: EO)

New on 12/7/04: TS in Scotland poses the Question: Which is easier, A) for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, B) to become a Free Mason or C) get a job in Rangering? Answer: A,B,C. Surprised,? this is my experience (Ref: MR)

►NL, Scotland says: Now there's a question! I take it that you would rather succeed in C rather than in A? (Although, as I understand it many rich men might like A to be a possibility!)

It can be difficult - 7 years seasonal and short term employment have led to my first full time, permanent post as a Countryside Ranger. Really in terms of advice - stick at it! Get some experience, to build on your qualifications, get out with local services and do a range of tasks etc, get as wide a knowledge of the job that you want and make sure it is what you want! Different Rangers and Services have slightly different roles - do you want to focus on education or conservation? Do you want to manage parks or countryside? Urban or rural? Private or Local Authority? There are masses of jobs in Scotland at the minute - and, I suspect, many more to come! SOAC (Scottish Outdoor Access Code) is already starting to increase the number of posts that are coming up. Keep looking, keep working on the volunteering and you will get there! (Ref: MR-R1)

Today I heard that a local nest of ospreys (protected) has just been wiped out by a pine marten. I have heard a nature reserve, set up to harbour water voles, has had bitterns take up residence, they are eating the voles. Research into a heronry has shown that the main food item of the nesting birds is water voles. An SSSI, set up on a grouse moor where hen harriers nest, has led to a crash in grouse numbers to such an extent that the shooting is no longer viable and a large number of jobs have been lost. The hen harrier numbers, after a large build up, have now dropped to below those found before SSSI status was confirmed. Is 'protection' endangering the 'protected'? Details supplied. (Ref: Pro)

New on 3/11/03: AH from Cambridgeshire says: I've been reading with much interest and sympathy all the discussion topics on the excellent CJS website. I haven't anything new to add to those I'm afraid, but would like to maybe put an idea out there in webland. I work in the East Anglia region for a Trust. I am interested in maybe trying to facilitate some form of professional outings, exchanges, visits call them what you like. I am more than willing to host an interested group and show them the work that my organisation does. I hope this will spark off exchange of ideas, concerning anything from engaging volunteer groups to litter management. I try and keep up to date with what other trusts, councils and organisations get up to in my own time, I just feel it would be useful to have a "behind the scenes look" sometimes. I do have an ulterior motive as well, I'm running out of ideas to take to management in order for them to implement what I feel are basic countryside management objectives and services we should be providing. So is anyone interested?? (ref: XCH)

Rachel from USA says: I have been reading the discussion on pay for countryside workers on this website's message board and am somewhat alarmed by it! I have been moving towards making a career change to this field of work but now feel very apprehensive. It sounds as though this kind of work can leave people angry, overworked, and poor. Would anyone like to describe the pros and cons of countryside/conservation work, particularly being a countryside warden, and also how they see the career and pay prospects? Would anyone actually recommend it to someone else as a good career to go into? (ref: GC)

In reply on 9/9/03: Rachel - yes, often long hours, poor pay, awful weather, etc. I thoroughly enjoy the conservation work, but not so keen on the ever increasing paper pushing. I would only recommend it if you are absolutely committed to conservation, either in a practical sense (management of countryside / habitats / landscapes), or as an educationalist (teaching people about what we are doing wrong and how to put it right), It can be very disheartening to see good work destroyed by those that don't understand or don't care - you also need to be thick skinned. I hope this helps you to make the right choice - good luck! Details supplied. (Ref: GC-R1)

On 22/9/03: I just wanted to say I got my first job after graduating as permanent assistant ranger (after volunteering for 6 months whilst looking for jobs) and I don't feel at all angry, disheartened or overworked! (Maybe a little poor!) I look at my job and think I am lucky to have it. I'd much prefer to enjoy what I do than settle for second best. Details Supplied (Ref: GC-R2)

SF of Wales writes: Dear all, as with all jobs, there are only so many available. In my area, west Wales, there are many managers, there are no more positions available, most of the shortages are in the manual field. Estate workers, we can't all count butterflies. Someone has to clear unwanted scrub and dig drainage ditches. Yes, bad weather, but also good weather. When I look up from my days work, I am lucky to be so immersed in nature. Perhaps the reasons for working in this industry are a little off. The countryside industry is a relatively new one. As yet there is very little environmental awareness. Yes, it is difficult to get good money, but as I said, more seekers than jobs. Basically it's supply and demand. The more of you that want to be wardens and rangers the less the pay will be...basic economics. Those that do well are those that persevere. Some of the finest ecologists/conservationists are free lance. Go on. If you're that good go save the planet off your own back. Stop winging. I thought that it was about championing endangered species not the money. (Ref: GC-R3)

No one says the topics have to be about employment or lack of it. How about things related to the countryside or linked to conservation in general? Does anyone have any thoughts on:

NEW TOPICS

The views contained on this page are not necessary those held by CJS.