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CJS Discussion Board - Slave Wages |
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This topic is now beginning to cross over with Experience Required? so to prevent duplication please read both. To see the latest addition to the page click here. New Thread on similar theme on 13/12/02:I feel I have to protest at the situation with regard to qualifications vs wages. There are two jobs out there this week that ask for teaching qualifications (PGCE or similar). Both jobs are in the £10 - £13k bracket. I shudder to think how these jobs are likely to be filled because with those qualifications any person could walk into a teaching job on considerably more pay than that. It just seems that the entire situation has become ridiculous given that there is a shortage of secondary level science teachers. Details supplied. (Ref: SWX) Replies:► 1. on 23/1/03: hear, hear! I am (yet another) graduate (Applied Ecology) with a MSc in Countryside Management. I have both voluntary and paid experience in biological surveying, practical env. management and community work. Despite this I find myself applying for jobs paying wages I could have bettered on leaving school at 16, with little opportunity for progression up the salary scale!! Like others, I went into this field with my eyes open, because I wanted to do a worthwhile and interesting job, and like others I am seriously considering a career change so that I can earn enough money to live! Four years of Uni and £12,000 down the drain (along with many brains if the situation doesn’t improve)! Details supplied (Ref: SWX-R1)
► 2. On 15/10/03, DT from Merseyside adds : My fiance is looking forward to being a ranger, but unfortunately the pay is awful for the skill levels required. As a student nurse, I am prepared for a low salary but at least I have an opportunity to work up the payscale! A friend of ours left school with few qualifications and has walked into a factory job at £17k pa. He asked why we are bothering to spend three expensive years at uni just to earn a pitiful wage. It's a shame we both have our hearts set on this kind of vocational career and will have to penny-pinch to get a house etc. (Ref: SWX-R2)
► 3. I am a field teacher in charge of three other people, I deal with over 40,000 school children a year (not all personally obviously) as well as leading free walks for members of the public. I also oversee conservation maintenance of a large-scale site and oversee five other staff members. Before I started I already had many years experience of conservation practice although this was not recognised because it was for my family firm. Guess how much I get paid for doing all this 10p an hour over minimum wage! and yes I'm also considering getting out in favour of more gainful employment even though I love what I do! Details supplied. (ref: SWX-R3)
► 4. LM in Newcastle says: I agree wholeheartedly with the fact that the wages need to be brought into the 21st Century. The thing I find most annoying is people who comment "yeah but you don't do that sort of job for the money, you do it because you enjoy it!!!" I HATE THAT! They're basically saying that if you enjoy this type of work, you should be prepared to be paid poorly for it! And also, I hate to shatter peoples illusions but working in the conservation/environmental sector is NOT the idealistic job with employees doing lovely guided walks on sunny days through fields of gold whilst fluffy bunnies hop by! It's hard, physical work, with poor pay and long hours, in sometimes horrific weather conditions! The sooner employers realise what they may be saving monetarily, they are losing in motivation of staff! (Ref: SWX-R4)
► 5. I am a manager who often has to decide appropriate pay rates for posts in the environmental sector. Having 'risen through the ranks' and campaigned for better pay and conditions I continue to be horrified at the poor pay in the sector. It is fair to say that most external funders (with a few exceptions) will happily pay decent rates for most jobs. A big problem that the senior and core staff within most conservation organisations are funded from a limited pot of cash. This means they are underpaid, often getting a fraction of what they would earn in the private sector. This becomes a barrier to asking for realistic salaries for other posts. Who wants to advertise a post that is better paid than their own? It's a real Catch-22. Increasingly, however, external partners are realising that you can't recruit quality staff without paying decent wages. The courage to offer better project officer salaries creates pressure for better salaries all round. Another negative factor is the reluctance of funders to implement full cost recovery - if they did this then there would be more funds available to reward core staff. If you feel you are underpaid, make sure your line managers know. They may not appreciate your situation. It is better to reward a good employee rather than wait until they leave to discover you need to enhance the salary. Finally, some of the rates advertised 'out there' are truly derisory. Don't be afraid of letting an employer know you looked at their job, but decided not to apply because the salary was poor. You would be surprised how many quite good jobs only get a relatively small number of suitable applicants, if employers realise they are missing good candidates, they may improve their offers. Details supplied (ref: SWX-R5) New Topic on 14/10/04: Wages Shock Hi I'm an upland footpath supervisor in the lake district, got many years experience and it's fair to say I'm held in high regard by my peers and others, I'm responsible for several valleys and write detailed specs for jobs and virtually project manage the entire shebang, risk assessments, helicopters, standards, time constraints and personnel issues, also I'm required to handle volunteers whenever available. I've been doing this quite happily for ages listening to folk moaning about things but yesterday I shocked myself when I worked out my hourly rate of pay for the first time, £6.80 an hour!! Did some checking with job websites and it seems I'm paid the same as babysitters, school crossing guard and telesales people, great, none of these involves heavy lifting hard walks, getting frozen and soaked, and you've very little chance of being killed at work! Time for a change mathinks Details Supplied (Ref: WaS) Original piece: Is it my imagination or are wages in this field getting worse by the day? We all except our choice to work in the environmental sector. We accept lesser wages for the perks of doing a "feel-good" job. However, it has reached a low point at which I can no longer afford to take on work. I have studied and worked as a ranger since college and cannot think of what else I can do with my skill. But for £10 or £11K I really think the charities & councils can shove their jobs. One solution requires more input of tax payers money into the environment - obviously. However, I feel many charities are simply being uncharitable. Many trusts have millions held in accounts. Plus they seem to always have that bit of money at hand when they need some new furniture for head-office in it's grandiose settings. Attitude needs to change. They can't use lack of funds as an excuse. I'm fed up of being on less pay than someone unskilled, unqualified, unexperienced [sic] and untalented. I'm fed up of knowing that if I don't take on a poor paid job that the company, trust, or whatever, will not feel any loss as some other mug will accept it (those with no mortgage, family or wealthy parents supporting them)- or even volunteer for it. I'm writing here, not just to get things off my chest - but to ask for support. Solidarity, a union? Please, ask people with skills & talents as Countryside workers, educators, researchers, etc. Ask these people to demand better pay. I've worked for one government body and three charities. All the charities spent money unwisely. All paid below £11k (that's below this nation's poverty-line) and all had funds tucked away in so called "savings & investments". We deserve a better share & recognition for the good work we do. All I'm asking for is enough to survive on, for Heaven's sake. And one last little moan. Considering the plight of a poor unemployed Ranger...is it too much to ask for the companies advertising freely in your publication to NOT expect us to pay for their postage stamps in the way of SAEs? (name supplied) Ref: SW Replies:► 1. From: Details supplied (Ref: SW-R1) who says: How heartily I agree. As one of a growing number of unemployed countryside professionals it pains me to see that salaries are not rising in line with inflation. I believe that the problem is threefold: 1) The countryside holds little of interest to politicians per se (other than cute little bunny-wunnies or foxes worthy of some mindless dismemberment by hunting dogs - allegedly - ), ergo, there is little need to attract new blood into the system, which, after all, is only going to push up the wages bill... 2) Many employers recognise that a high salary is not 'necessary', as the post always holds some other reward such as location and working in a beautiful area with charming local village hostelries, for example. Try telling that to the poor urban ranger who has to repair fences vandalised for the umpteenth time this week, or replanting thrice uprooted new trees around an inner-city sensory garden. Okay, so I know I'm generalising, which might be wrong, but maybe it's time that some of our underqualified and overpaid countryside managers (As if?!!) actually spent time as front line staff at the sharp end. Maybe then, there'd be a little more sympathy and a little less tightening of the purse strings. 3) Now. I know you all mean well, and well, how ELSE are you going to get experience? But, I seriously think that the volunteer system is a huge part of the problem. Employers know full well that countryside work, especially Rangering and allied professions is a calling - a vocation if you will, so why pay a huge salary to staff who may or may not be worth more, when a squad of volunteers (who are generally well motivated, let's face it!) will do the job for free? I've been a manager, so I can see both sides of the argument. In reply to point 3 above on 3/10/02: Yes, I agree with most of the previous comments. It would seem that we in the environmental sector are completely exploited by voluntary organisations, local authorities and national government. Employers seem to assume that candidates will continue accepting poverty wages because of the high amount of people dedicated to their profession and as pointed out earlier the army of willing volunteers. After 7 years in the field, with a series of temporary, part-time, seasonal or fixed term contracts I have had to consider my financial security and have concluded that unless I find a partner to support me, I can no longer continue in the field that has been my consuming passion for most of my adult life. I can think of very few other professions (apart from acting) which demand such compromises. Perhaps a union would be a start although in the current political climate I doubt whether we would see a real rise in incomes or funding. Details supplied (Ref: SW-R1A) Λ
► 2. JK, Cheshire. (Ref: SW-R2) says: I'm afraid I have to agree with these sentiments. It is very sad that there are so many of us now, many with several degrees, post graduate qualifications, teaching diplomas and years of experience that are have reached the age where we have to choose between doing a job that we believe in and being able to afford to raise a family and have a home. If we are not careful there will be a serious "brain drain" from this industry as the only people who can afford to work for the charities etc will be recent graduates and the retired. I believe that the answer may well be a Union, but also that the NGOs need to start applying for serious salaries when they are putting in grant applications. Unless we ask for the money the grant bodies aren't going to take us seriously. personally, I'm working as a self-employed consultant. I've compromised but it pays the bills. I could be doing so much more!!! In reply on 1/11/02: I think that everybody who works in the environment sector agrees that the pay is abyssmal, that generally isn't why we do it, which isn't justification for it! There is an understanding amongst employers that they can pay crap wages because there is always going to be someone to come in afterwards. I think that this is changing and people are going to start getting a shock with only novice applicants for jobs which are becoming more nd more important. There is actually a Union. Prospect is the union for people in the environment and heritage sectors, NTS have been in a while, NT have just agreed representation with them. They deal with most of the government science departments (EN, EH, CCW, SNH,the Met Office) but also things like air traffic control. They have done really good things for NTS and EH and we have high hopes too! Why are the people who work for local authorities not in Unison, we are not a special case, one of the problems with people in our line of work is we think that we are unique, we have the same problems of low pay as most of the people who work in the public/ charity sector. Details Supplied (Ref: SW-R2A) Λ
► 3. On 1/10/02: I agree that wages are a joke. I am the manager of one of the most prestigious Country Parks in the region yet see teenagers working in the on site cafe earning the same amount of money (more on bank holidays!) I have a Master's degree in Countryside Management and 10 years' experience. Is this right? I think not. Details supplied. (ref: SW-R3) Λ
► 4. On 2/10/02: Like the other contributors, I feel that salaries in this field are appalling. 8 years ago, I was made redundant from the electronics industry. I now work longer, unsociable hours, manage some 200 Ha of urban fringe countryside have to deal with unpleasant people and their unpleasant dogs and rubbish, have much more responsibility, yet even with enhancements for weekends, I only earn 2/3 the pay I did then. I suspect that part of the reason is the 'Oh how lucky you are to be a Ranger, prance around in your landrover and look at the birds and butterflies' view that a huge percentage of the public have. Where are they when we are up to our ears clearing muddy drainage ditches in the snow and ice? Or picking up the rotten remains of a sheep killed by their dog? All the lip service towards 'the environment' counts for little when it is seen as being sexy. Details Supplied (ref: SW-R4) Λ
► 5. on 10/10/02: I also heartily agree that the countryside and conservation industry has declined into the realms of slave wages and a poor track record of in job training. I also agree that a large part of this has to do with the volunteer system ... offer an employer a free worker and they are unlikely to turn it down, and with so many free why pay highly for those you employ. The comment about a union tickled my imagination though, I suppose most unions originated from disgruntled people in various sectors wanting to protect themselves from being taken advantage of. I Heartily agree that this kind of idea would be a move in the right direction. Lets face it employers will continue to use free voluntary labour, wages will not get any better, job training will not increase and it will continue to be impossible for hard working and knowledgeable new blood to get into the industry unless those dedicated to environmental and conservation work stand up and be counted ... look at the number of posts from unhappy people in this sector, notice how the comments are the same time and time again .... imagine how many others around the UK are thinking or voicing the same opinions ... its obvious there is a problem with how the environmental sector is run and recruits, the question is when are we going to stand up unified and tell the employers that this is not good enough. We tell the nation the environment is of great importance but the message given to those within the field is "you are of little value!" Details supplied. (ref: SW-R5) Λ
► 6. Comments on 17/10/02,: To support this topic - Pay is appalling, and I also agree that volunteers play a part in this - but that's how many of us gain enough experience to be employable, how many fellow wardens/rangers out there can honestly say they have never volunteered as part of career progression? As a 23 yr old who has never earned more than £11k in countryside management jobs, the future, no matter how positive a person you are, is looking quite bleak. Details supplied (Ref: SW-R6) In reply on 10/12/02: Perhaps the problem is the army of volunteers get to do the "glamorous" work. If the army of volunteers were doing regular vehicle checks and drainage clearance there wouldn't be so many! I think volunteers are a vital resource but if employers rely on them and cherry pick the jobs to attract them then we can expect the low wages to continue. To balance the high number of volunteers available with the poor wages and high unemployment levels of very good experienced and highly qualified staff perhaps a guaranteed training/volunteering programme should be instigated by all agencies with a guaranteed job at the end on a decent wage. Some provide one I know but wouldn't it be nice for ALL to do it! Oops dreaming again! Details supplied (Ref: SW-R6A) Λ
► 7. On 28/10/02: Wages are a joke, employers need to WAKE UP. I am expected to do the wardening, spend a large part doing gut-wrenching jobs and 20% of my time educating children, starting at £11k (They wanted to start on £9-10k at age 28) Did I really spend years of education and dreams for that. I could earn more packing shelves. And that doesn't take in to account how well I do the job. Details Supplied, (Ref: SW-R7) Λ
► 8. LB of Exeter on 28/10/02 says: I agree with everything said in this discussion so far and sympathise. I have spent the last 7 years completing a degree in Natural Sciences and doing voluntary work for a variety of wildlife organisations. Now with little prospect of finding paid work in this field, let alone a job that pays enough to make you feel comfortable, not having to worry about bills all the time etc. I am starting to think about returning to the kind of work that I did before I started to pursue working for wildlife and the environment. I am still doing what I can by way of voluntary work and will always have a passionate commitment to this field. I enjoy photographing wildlife, writing about wildlife, teaching others about wildlife. I have even created a website about wildlife (Wildnet.info, click here or visit Links). My previous experience has been in advertising and marketing where I have had project management experience and work as a teacher/trainer. I am not sure where to go from here. I was hoping my skills might be useful in wildlife conservation. And perhaps they still might. But it seems unlikely I will be able to find paid work in this field sufficient to live on. (Ref: SW-R8) In response to the above: SP of E Sussex says, Hi - The person who entered comments under reference SW R8 has mentioned seven years studying for a degree in natural sciences. I am curious, have you done an Open University degree, I have just (subject to final exam results) completed an OU degree in natural sciences, about the same time scale to. If you have we have something in common. It would be interesting to correspond. [But only via this discussion board, as we don’t want this website to become a penpal / dating agency!! CJS] By the way I agree with absolutely everything said by yourself and others. Though I am in employment as a park ranger in an urban setting (and all the urban hassle that brings) I do not seem to be doing what I have trained for and am finding it impossible to move on. I am thinking of going into self employed consultancy/ biological surveying, if anyone has any comments on this I would very much like to hear them as I, like most of you, just do not see myself getting the job I really want in the so called employed sector with a realistic salary. Bye for now and good luck to all out there trying hard to succeed. (Ref-SW-R8A)
► 9. On 16/9/03: With regards to the topic slave wages. I find disparity of wages and services across councils shocking. My wife works as a seasonal ranger for one council earning £13K, she is supplied with a T-shirt is not allowed any weekends off (while ranger manager and senior ranger enjoy alternate weekends) has to work all public holidays with no enhancement. Holidays accrued must be taken as pay in lieu at the end of the season. A neighbouring council pays their seasonal rangers £15K supplies a full range of uniform and protective clothing, pays weekend and public holiday enhancement and offers alternate weekends off. As I work during the week and have my days off at the weekend along with the kids, this means I have been unable to holiday with or enjoy even basic social time with her. Its about time that countryside rangers united and started using their respective trades unions to bring about a balance of working conditions across the country. JS, Scotland (Ref:SW-R9)
► 10. On 15/1/04 - I had a degree and 3 years voluntary experience before I gained my first waged position on £7,000! I have now been in the paid field for 7 years and have specialized in Interpretation, yet it took 6 years before I was paid the same as my husbands starting salary 10 years ago! With out my parents and his support I would never have been able to do this job. I now have responsibility for interpretation for 8 parks and their marketing as well - could you imagine what wages I could get if I was just marketing one commercial company? I recently looked at receptionist jobs which paid more. None of us came into this field for the money, but that doesn't mean we should be taken advantage of. We are skilled professionals and that needs to be reflected in our pay and conditions. Details supplied (ref: SW-R10)
► 11. On 1/2/04 - It's not only wardens & rangers who are severely underpaid. My boyfriend works in an aquarium, and earns less than £11,000pa. For the job, his employer requested a graduate with experience. He has both. Support workers in the same company earn the same wage as him, work far fewer hours, aren't required to be on call through the night, and aren't required to have a degree. He's a member of a union, asks them repeatedly for help, but they've told him they can't help him, as he's earning above nat min wage. The wages scientists and conservation workers are expected to work for is shocking. How can people be expected to pay off their huge student loans if they're earning wages below the poverty line? How can they be expected to support their families? It's demeaning, especially when highly educated and experienced workers are forced to rely on tax credits. We can't even afford all our bills each month. Of my friends who studied ecology/environment at university, only 2 have found employment (poverty wages, though), as even the jobs offering the lowest wages demand at least 2 years' experience. For most people, this means working for free (great way to cripple your finances, that!). I find it absolutely scandalous that our government is filling the heads of school kids with such nonsense as "If you do a degree, you'll earn more than you would do if you left school as 16" and "The average graduate wage is 20,000pa". For any discipline, that's rubbish. Details supplied (ref: SW-R11)
► 12. On 10/2/04 -What very sad reading this subject makes! As a country lad who had always been interested in conservation, I came into ranger / warden work early in the 1970's. Starting with estate maintenance on an urban fringe country park. I then progressed onwards and upwards through an acclaimed heritage site, then to a regional complex of country house estates in the care of a prestigious organisation, and finally to a large country park. I left that job in the 1990's to train unemployed people in rural skills and environmental education, this was not a good idea! The college that I worked for decided 'bums on seats' were all important to achieve targets (and Government money) and short term contracts and a pay cut were the order of the day. About the same time lots of small new 'countryside' orientated parks were set up with staff paid pathetic wages and support and training abysmal. To give them their due, many of those who took such jobs dragged themselves up by the boot laces and learned or are learning the trade the hard way. At the time of my leaving the sorry mess behind I wondered where it was all going to finish up. I now know! My grand fathers were a coal miner and a farm labourer respectively. They brought up large families on pathetic pay, rotten working conditions and no job security. They, and thousands like them, were the reason that trades unions are here today. The rogue land and mine owners were swept aside by circumstance and union power. Now the 'middle way' government and 'land owning councils' hold sway. We are now ruled by the cash of industrialists, some of them make policy for the government regarding how the countryside is run. Have you ever read 'Animal Farm'? Join a trades union and go to the branch meetings! Join the Countryside Alliance and be seen with your banners en mass! Be seen and heard on TV and in the press as a group of people with justification for being there! Or cluck and cockadoodle on your patch of turf and be trodden underfoot, while your countryside is buried under tarmac and turbines! The conservation movement has lost it's way and the government has it by the nose ring! Get out there and do something about it, or join the poor bloody infantry! Details supplied. (Ref: SW-R12)
► NB, South Yorkshire says: I am at present working as an assistant community forester for less than 9k a year which is 3k less than I was earning 17 years ago as a labourer in a paper mill. Okay I was on shift work but I still work unsocial hours just not as bad. I can cope with low pay but this is stupid whilst at uni 99-02 I worked as a cleaner and earned more? I came into this profession to make a difference I think the difference I made was I want to change jobs! unless things change I may have to change jobs just to make ends meet I can only cope so much with poverty. (Ref: SW-R13)
► Well, I have no good news I'm afraid. I work for a local authority where we just got our Job Evalution letters and, surprise-surprise, the Countryside Wardens are amongst the losers: salaries frozen, no incremental rises at all. Despite needing a degree to get an interview, when it comes to job evaluation we are just a bunch of unskilled soft targets. Five years' training, getting on for 7 years experience and I could earn more in a poultry factory. Strike action beckons. Details Supplied (Ref: SW-R14)
► The environment is probably the most important resource we have but those who work in it are treated terribly both in pay and conditions. I have just recently completed a BSc in Ecology and an MA in Landscape Architecture and some of the jobs advertised are offering 15k to start (good by many of the other amounts quoted on here). I fear I may well have wasted my time and money (was on 25k before going back to study).The standard of education and facilities at the Universities was also dreadful and disorganised. I recently offered my services as a volunteer to a nationally recognised NGO that cares for the environment...its been three weeks and I have heard nothing...UNPROFESSIONAL! I agree it is time a union was formed to push back these unscrupulous employers...how about the Countryside Workers Union as a name. Mind you, funding is the key problem. Until the environment is funded in a decent manner by the powers that be many of these employers are going to struggle to pay decent wages. What we need is a big environmental catastrophe so the powers that be cough up...oh sorry...we already have an environmental catastrophe and NO ONE IS LISTENING!!! Details supplied. (Ref: SW-R15)
► JN of Glos says: I currently work as an engineer for a multi national company, I graduated in 1998 and now earn 31k and naturally consider myself underpaid. I was seriously considering studying and volunteering to obtain a career change to an outdoor job, thinking I would probably earn half my current wage. Needless to say I will not now be trying to enter your industry or volunteering in it. Your wages are simply shocking and unacceptable. (Ref: SW-R16)
► JS from East Anglia asks: Has any union, or group that is looking to become a union, been set up yet? Are there any regular meetings held to discuss these issues? I agree that pay is bad in this sector, and that volunteer posts are created when paid training posts should be set up. I know people have already mentioned the governmental side. I also think certain Non-Governmental Organisations have got their priorities wrong: While membership of conservation NGOs has increased a lot, very little of the revenue from new membership seems to be going on staff and their needs. Perhaps it's time to sacrifice at least some of the money spent on buying up and improving sites in order to improve pay and paid local training for conservation workers. I would support any move to start to sort it out, but like most of you, I don't have a lot of time or money to go about doing it. At least not on my own. (Ref: SW-R17)
► On 21/10/04: PM in Thailand says: I would like to give my support to the people pushing for realistic wages in countryside and conservation jobs in the UK. Yes we have a desire to work in conservation and do something worthwhile, but we also need to eat, to wear clothes, to have a roof over our heads, to pay the bills, to send our children to schools and to have a reasonable standard of living. I am currently working overseas in environmental education and have been considering returning to the UK. Reading this discussion forum is quite depressing. Perhaps I need to rethink my future. In the meanwhile, how do you set up a union? (Ref: SW-R18)
► On 28/10/04 CI in London says: Dear all,re. wageslaves...Join UNISON. (Ref: SW-R19)
►On 30/10/04 RI of Herts says I'm a mature graduate of some 12 months graduation and am totally without a job. The problem I have is that I cannot volunteer having a fiancée and a step child so that mortgages and council tax and similar have to be paid. I'm seriously thinking of getting out of the field and go into primary teaching but are there any suggestions? (Ref: SW-R20)
►On 9/11/04: Whilst I agree that in most geographical areas the wages to skills-base ratio is out of proportion to other jobs, I would have to say that nowadays many people are arming themselves with needlessly high qualifications such as BScs, MScs and PHds when all they want to do careerwise is standard rangering/wardening work. These same people also rarely have much in the way of practical voluntary experience which to my mind is as important, if not more so than many of the environmental qualifications on offer nowadays. With such a glut of over-qualified people, employers are not going to raise wages when they can pick and choose at leisure from a plethora of people who want to work in the countryside. I believe this can only lead to an overall skills loss and a dumbing-down of our profession which is already largely misunderstood by the lay person anyway. As a countryside ranger I am lucky to be in a reasonably well paid job after 13 years due to six years of voluntary work with local ranger services and studying at college. The highest qualification I have is a National Diploma, which was very practical based, yet now I deal with graduates armed to the teeth with umpteen letters after their name who don't know how to use a bow saw properly or want to put in a hard day's work to get the job done. I think now that there are more people who see a ranger posting as a fashionable job in a nice part of the country to live rather than a true passion and commitment to our countryside and its wildlife. I do have a wife, mortgage and credit card to support and have worked hard to get to the post I am in today and am not supported by rich parents, and I work in a urban setting with all the problems that go with it, just in case you were cursing me through your screen. For those who have called for a union to be set up, you could try joining the Countryside Managers Association CMA. They aren't a union, but a more centralised voice through a recognised professional body would have more might to it. Details supplied (Ref: SW-R21) On 18/1/05: Fair point on the qualifications not arming you for ranger type work. But if you actually want to use your budget, people and time management skills, or your project development/fund-raising/networking skills, all of which I gained from doing my PhD, you still have to struggle to get a decent wage, not to mention the chance to use those valuable transferable skills. (I did a PhD outwith the British system, anyone considering a PhD should do likewise if they want a worthwhile experience). Details supplied (Ref: SW-R21A)
► On 18/1/05: I heartily agree with all comments so far, especially the volunteer issue. For family reasons, I actually moved back here from overseas, where undergraduates with no prior experience get substantial field wages in the summer. I'm really regretting it now when I see the appalling situation in the countryside sector. Don't try doing the 'reverse brain drain' as I did and bring your internationally-acquired skills back to the UK, because you won't be thanked for it! Details Supplied. (Ref: SW-R22)
► On 7/3/05 - I feel that in the areas of conservation, ecology etc' we are long overdue for a sympathetic union with national links. If we the people can stand together in proposing a fair pay scale and stick by it, with proposals for rights and benefits for volunteers and trainees, we can start campaigning for a fair deal. A minimum wage for different categories could be advertised throughout the country to various organisations, charities, consultants etc'. Less emphasis on driving licences on job applications would be helpful, obviously some jobs need private transport but why are we doing it? If we are serious about trying to make the world a better place with increased biodiversity, cleaner skies and rivers then surely we should be trying to limit car use as much as possible. I have spoken to people from consulting agencies who wont even consider applicants without a driving license, is this a case of those who are most serious about lessening their environmental impact using public transport, walking and cycling being penalised for it. Details supplied (Ref: SW-R23)
► On 30/6/05. IN in Lancashire says: Yep I totally agree the wages are pitifully low. After leaving university I did 6 months of volunteering with major charity. It became apparent that many graduates were simply being used as a free source of labour doing menial office duties and not getting the experience that had been promised. I left and don't have a good word to say about this charity. After months of unemployment I finally landed a job as an assistant ranger in an urban park. I'm on minimum wage and for much of the time in the evenings I am completely alone on the site. Given the level of responsibilities I have the pay is awful. If I do get promotion to a ranger the pay is still poor and from then on there's not much scope for progression. I can appreciate the argument that you sacrifice pay for working in a beautiful part of the country but for the urban ranger removing another burnt out car from the back of an industrial estate that simply doesn't hold true. From my experience with the charity it became clear that the chinless wonders at the top were taking home nice three figure pay packets for talking complete nonsense and brown-nosing politicians. The practical side of things was left to teams of unskilled workers on minimum wage supervised by equally unskilled project officers on paltry wages. This is an organisation that receives millions of pounds every year from central government. A union might help motivate people to think seriously about more funding. I don't think that many people outside of the sector realise just how bad the wages are. (Ref: SW-R24)
► On 9/9/05: I work for a local authority and really can't see the point of joining UNISON from the point of view of wage increase. Our local union reps are just as clueless as our employers as to what our jobs entails (i.e. abuse from MOPs, hrs of clearing up dogshit, etc etc) and the answer seems to be "you picked the job, you live with it". With my qualifications I could get about twice as much in another field. I'd get more working in a chicken factory, but then again I'd rather not! I think the disparity between qualifications and wages has more to do with a "buyer's market" in this field than with a real need for the purpose of the job - not being funny, but the vast majority of the tasks I carry out I could have easily done at 18 with ew months' experience volunteering and the knowledge I got from my A levels, reading and watching telly. Yet my job specs included a degree, NVQ, 3 years experience and an postgrad qualification as desirable. Why? Because there were enough applicants for this post that they could reject most of them without a problem. Details supplied. (Ref: SW-R25)
► On 21/4/06 MM from Glasgow says: I have just read through the comments posted on this topic and I'm disheartened by the responses. I graduated three years ago after gaining a Bsc in Aquatic Bioscience (volunteered in the summer, working in student type jobs the rest of the year). I must have applied for over 150 jobs over a period of six months, from large commercial graduate schemes down to jobs with the local trusts. Yes most of them didn't pay very much, around 12k-13k and I didn't get any of them and ending up working in a call centre (for 11k). I decided that my degree was useless and spent 90% of my time moaning about how useless degrees were (and I got a first). I put a lot of time and effort into looking for an employer (despite working for 12hrs a day) and started to cold call employers and send out CVs. It paid off and I was hired by one of the leading environmental consultancies as an Ecologist. And yes it still didn't pay very much - 14k. But I thought it was fantastic and I really wouldn't have cared if it was 11 or 12k, as I was so happy to have a foot in the door. It really paid off and I've working really hard and my wages have nearly doubled in two years. (Remembering that consultancy is a commercial industry) And guess what I'm still volunteering to gain survey experience on top of this work! I'm not gloating, the point I'm trying to make is, yes the pay can be poor, but you need to get that first opportunity to get the experience and impress the right people. Believe me the opportunity is out there, and if you work hard you'll get it. My company were always on the look out for new staff, even graduates, but often not for any advertised position. I've moved on to a different consultancy now, but the situation is the same there. We are short of talented graduates, and a lot of the skills can be learned on the job. I know this probably doesn't apply to conservation jobs, but it will be relevant to some of you. So send you CVs out to companies, get on the phone, get proactive! Please don't give up hope. I understand. (Ref: SW-R26)
► 22/7/06 GE from Gloucester says: I have changed direction in life from £30.000 p.a. as a police officer to a field assistant working with a wildlife and ecology team in a government funded environment. Yes the wages are poor but I am on a learning curve even though I have a lot of experience in wildlife. I agree with a lot of the comments on the discussion board, the wages could be better. I am thinking hard before spending my meagre money on obtaining a BSc in Ecology. However I have worked hard and put myself about and it seems to be paying off. Even though I am on short term contracts I enjoy the job, but please all you employers out there, pay a decent wage for a decent days work before we all change vocations. (ref: SW-R27)
► On 13/10/06: I am currently training for work in the environmental sector, earning, at the moment, nothing, and hoping for wages later. This is as a career change from working in organic growing, where I was working for less than minimum wage. I was hoping to have kids in the next few years. It may well come to the choice between having kids and going mad working on a supermarket till, or having a hard but rewarding job and never having kids. The industry should not be making us make this appalling choice. Details supplied. (Ref: SW-R28)
► On 28/6/07: I work for a local council in a urban ranger position. I am expected to carry out habitat management, amenity access work, manage volunteers, grant bidding, environmental education, write management plans, community outreach work, manage projects and deliver events. For £14,500 pa. With weekend working I can earn about £16,000. The same as a worker at Tescos Take a look at other average wages The average wage for a professional in my region is £22,300 An average salary of £30,274 for full-time teachers (SOC 2314/2315) in primary and secondary school roles. An average salary of £24,000 for nurses (SOC 3211). An average salary of £31,450 for police officers (SOC 3312) who hold the rank of sergeant or below. An average salary of £23,546 for firefighters (SOC 3313) at the rank of leading fire officer or below. All of the above are well worth their money. Nurses are renowned for low pay. On average £8,000 more than myself. Employers are partly to blame. But so are the employees, with sayings like “we are one of the best paid ranger services in the country” Trade unions must be able to play a role in this ongoing joke Details supplied. (Ref: SW-R29)
► On 2/7/07 T from East Yorkshire states: I agree the salary is a pittance. Mine has risen from £17,000 to £17,800 in TEN years. I'm 54 with an MSc in Environmental Management (Ref: SW-R30)
► On 23/10/07 AN from the Midlands writes: Royal mail have gone on strike because of pay. They want the national average wage of £395, I don't get anything like that average wage. I do a average days work as a ranger, however I receive £269 per week ( £14000 PA) So I'm paid £126 per week less than the average wage. I hope the postal workers get the rise, but what about me!! Who is currently paid £6552 less than the average. I would like a house one day, but I won't be able to as a Ranger. ((Ref: SW-R31)
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