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CJS Discussion Board - Skills & Recruitment |
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You are here> Info > Main board> Additional Skills & Graduate Recruitment |
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Additional Skills and Graduate Recruitment. We feel these are all threads along similar lines and have grouped them all together here.
JY of Glasgow says: Just a quick expression of my frustration at the complete lack of flexibility in regard to having to have a driving licence, even for a job surveying cycle paths! I wonder how many applicants get asked whether they use their car even when unnecessary? (Ref: DL) Replies:SP of County Durham says: I agree completely with JY of Glasgow. I graduated with 1st class honours from Durham University in 2000 but have still been unable to find a meaningful and challenging environmental job because despite trying, I have been unable to pass my driving test. In the environmental industry, not driving should be seen as a positive thing and more measures should be put in place by employers to avoid the need for driving. (Ref: DL-R1)
I am afraid JY and SP will not like what I have to say. I have worked for over 10 years in the environment sector and have yet to have or hear of a job that did not require a driving licence. However much we would like to support public and other forms of non-car transport, there will be times when it is not viable. I am sure that given enough thought and organisation, many jobs could be arranged so that the need to drive is minimised, but probably never eliminated. Where a job does not require a driving licence, it is likely to be one that can be performed solely in an office and therefore not anywhere near 'the environment' Perhaps you are right and not enough employers have actually thought carefully enough about the need to have a driving licence. For example would it be feasible for the cycle path survey job to be done by cycle? Could a Ranger do their job effectively without driving? Employers are going to want their staff working in the most efficient way possible. If that cycle path survey job is a county wide job, who is going to pay for the time it takes to cycle to the path to then survey it? I suggest the employer would rather this time was spent writing up the survey rather than travelling to/from the site. Thinking about other industries, who would be happy waiting for the midwife/plumber/ computer technician to get to them on a bus/train/bike? OK I know it's a trite example, but as much as for other industries, cars/vans/landrovers/tractors and the like are essential tools which are needed to carry out a variety of roles. Arguing that environmentalists should not need to drive is rather like saying that conservationists should never cut down trees. Both are necessary in certain circumstances. Details supplied (Ref: DL-R2)
AD of UK says: Most jobs in the countryside sector require the need to drive there, so the need for a full driving license is the norm. (practical experience definitely out weighs degrees, HND's etc). (Ref: DL-R3)
► My experience is much the same. 10 years ago I graduated in ecology at Lancaster. I spent 5 years getting occasional little contracts, plus a whole year as an employment trainee for the RSPB. Every full-time position I applied for said it wanted a driving license. Then I decided to do a Masters degree in ecology to improve my chances. 5 years later I have still not found anything except some occasional part-time work that I had before. I would love to pass my driving test, but with 2 young kids and no proper job, how can I. I have told many prospective employers that I would pay for an intensive course if they offered me a job. You won't be surprised that they weren't interested. It is a similar story with my chainsaw license. My funding for that was cut whilst working for nothing at the RSPB, and I can't afford to pay for it myself. One would hope that environmental charities would look after staff and volunteers, with great opportunities for training and development. Unfortunately, the opposite is true, and the continual move towards everybody being on short contracts will only make this worse. Details supplied (ref: DL-R4)
► I have also found that getting any job relating to my countryside management qualification requires a full driver's licence, and in most cases your in own car. After graduating from my degree, I owed money to my parents, my sister, my credit card company, the student loans company and my bank, and I didn't even have enough money to apply for a provisional driver's licence. I have no wish to add to these debts by taking out a loan to buy a car, so I am currently doing temporary jobs to scrape together enough money for lessons, a car and insurance. I do understand that driving is an essential skill for most ranger type jobs, but I do wonder whether I should have spent my money on a decent car instead of getting a degree, as the majority of jobs I am interested in don't even require gcses! Even when a driver's licence isn't required for the job, adverts often list "own transport required" because the site is not connected to public transport links. As the majority of countryside sites are interested in conservation and aim for sustainability, surely it would be in their interests to provide group transport for their employees. Providing a minibus to and from the local bus station, for example, would encourage employees to use public transport to reach the station. Details Supplied (Ref: DL-R5)
► I have recently intermitted from a Masters course, so have completed the taught part but will doing the thesis come April. In the meantime I am looking for an environmental job. I agree all the jobs out there want a driving licence, some I don't even know why. My advice is learn now if you can. I am trying to learn at the moment but it is expensive and takes time, meanwhile I am limited as to what jobs I can hold. I think larger environmental organisations should perhaps encourage lift sharing or have a minibus to pick people up from nearby train/bus stations. That way they too can be more environmentally friendly. However many jobs involve driving around a large area, so if you think you would like this type of job, then my advice is get learning to drive now. Details supplied (ref: DL-R6)
► L B from Halifax has a suggestion: I worked as a volunteer ranger from being 16 and was lucky enough to pass my test first time. I found that when I became a full time ranger I needed my driving licence on a day to day basis not only to get to and from work but also when supplies for the site were needed or support was needed elsewhere on other sites I was able to head out there. I have now moved into management and need my car as I work all over the country but I work with a number of people from organisations such as the countryside agency that don’t have use of a car or if it is extremely necessary they use a pool car. Maybe you might try this approach when contacting potential employers? Just a thought. (Ref: DL-R7) I'm about to graduate with a Bsc in Ecology and Environmental Management from a good university - but I still don't have a lot of the skills/knowledge required by employers, even though I took a year out in the industry. Is this a common problem (for employers and for those jobseeking)? If so, what can be done? Details Supplied. (Ref: GR) In reply on 5/7/04 the best way to gain employment is to continue to further your knowledge and experience by volunteering for the wildlife trust or English Nature wardening. It's usually up to you how many hours you put in providing it's at least two full days. Gaining licences in species is also a good way to get yourself noticed. Details supplied (Ref: GR-R1) Recently graduated with an Ecology degree and summer ahead a lively and bright individual set about job hunting....sounds familiar? No job after numerous applications said person cracked and pursued another career...the twist cometh....a way back into environmental job circles may appear due to this career change. The answer? 1year as a teaching assistant in science and a 1year PGCE then a few years teaching. Bonus.....include £6000 cash free plus no tuition fees plus student loan equals circa £9500 for training to be an educator with specification in Biology. After a few years teaching a golden hello of £4000 and then.....and then....doors open for outdoors education which according to my research pays more than just a ranger job......... BUT is this all a dream....perhaps....either way this intrepid wannabe ranger will be content either way, after all teaching can be the best job in the world....but then it can be the worst..... Details supplied. (ref: EC?) ►In reply on 9/9/03: You make a fine and justified point - this is a route that I too considered after over 200 applications, nearly 40 interviews and no job as a Ranger. Teaching became a very attractive option with the golden handshakes, good holidays, reasonable pay etc etc, BUT it also has major downsides - 2 people in my family have been made ill as a result of teaching! And you may be right, it may lead to a job in Outdoor Education, but this is not work as a Ranger. I would suggest that three things need to be considered 1) Do you want to be a Ranger, 2) Are you prepared to spend 2 or 3 years doing voluntary and seasonal work and 3) If not and you choose the route of teaching/Outdoor Education (which is one facet, but only a small part of a Rangers work remit) will you be prepared to accept the drop in wages to become a Ranger eventually? Outdoor Education is a great job - but it is not being a Ranger; we do the job of educator certainly, and mostly this is outdoors, but we also pick up litter, build fences styles and footpaths, write Species Action Plans and a multitude of other tasks - make sure you want to be a Ranger! Details supplied. (Ref: EC?-R1)
►On 23/7/04 PB of Teesside says: You make the teaching profession sound so nasty and evil yet you have not mentioned any first hand experience. I am a year on and love teaching it is massively rewarding but only the right people need apply. I hate the losers who do it for the money and holidays (you don't get as many as you think). I love the outdoors and aim to teach there some day but why do you bad mouth that also? what is it that being a ranger is so special? I'm not interested in building fences etc. (although I wouldn't shirk the duty if asked) I see the perfect job that involves education, publicity, research and presentation of my field, how far off a ranger is that and how far off an outdoor educator is that? however there are also opportunities for teachers in this sector. (ref: EC?-R1A) Which is best MSc or full time volunteer? I'm presently faced with a choice of direction regarding developing my experiences / knowledge in the ecology sector but I need some sensible unbiased advice. I graduated last year with a 2:1 in an Ecology related degree which I earnt over 4 years. During this time I spent a year within the Countryside Section of my Local Authority where I carried out botanical surveys, learnt about LBAPs and all the associated bits and pieces, assisted with surveys relating to planning and development (mostly badgers) and various other types of work associated with the Public Sector. Prior to and during University I also took part in BTCV affiliated groups thus gaining various practical habitat management skills while upon graduating last year I volunteered over the summer at my local NNR (more survey work, dealing with the public etc etc). As with hundreds of others across the country I've been having problems finding suitable work thus I'm presently a waitress although I did spend 9 months as an administrator for my local authority. At the end of the day I want to be a field ecologist for a consultancy and I'm not in any rush to get there, it could be tomorrow or in ten years, I'm happy to take my time. However, right now I have two options for the coming September (I don't want to be a waitress forever!) and I'm unsure which would be my best choice. 1. An MSc in Environmental Impact Assessment 2. 12 months full time volunteering for the National Trust. Obviously over the next two years I could do both if need be but I'd prefer to exist on the breadline for 12 months rather than 24 so I need someone to offer an opinion as to which might improve my immediate chances of work in the ecology sector! (Obviously I know there is never any guarantee!). Neither choice is something I'm planning on taking lightly so I'm trying to gain as educated opinion as possible!! I know I could always volunteer for another organisation (I also live near an RSPB reserve) at weekends etc while also carrying out a Masters Course during the week but I think 12months volunteering would be more beneficial to me than part time volunteering. Also, from previous experience I find it very difficult emotionally to juggle too many things at once!! Any advice would be great. Cheers. Details supplied. (ref: MVOL) Replies:►AM of Beds says: I think it's far better to a masters. (ref: MVOL-R1)
►I spent a number of months in full time vol prior to commencing a full time MSc in an ecological subject. Both have their merits but I find the key skills that employers ask for again and again are field skills. I have loved the MSc and it has certainly opened up doors in terms of accessing consultancy and conservation, particularly as I have been doing surveys for my thesis. However, if you want to work for the charity sector I would get involved in volunteering, but try and get on a structured scheme such as those run by NT. If you want to develop research skills similar to those gathered during an MSc, perhaps you could take on a special project such as those offered occasionally by English Nature - it shows initiative and that you have an analytical ability, in addition to your habitat management skills! Another option could be to approach researchers if they require field assistance, I know the WildCRU at Oxford Uni occasionally recruit volunteers for projects around the UK. Good luck! Details supplied (Ref: MVOL-R2)
►Dear MVOL - For what it's worth, here is my advice. I keep an eye on the job pages and see several ecologist jobs appearing. It seems that they all want experience ie in field surveying, plant/animal id, specialist techniques e.g. mitigation, licences. The question to ask yourself is will the course give you the experience you need to get the job. It is clear you already have the 'relevant qualification that most employers want, and probably a lot of the experience too. In my opinion I would suggest you opted for the volunteering route to get even more experience. You have to be, I think, quite focused in your volunteering i.e you have to get out of it what you want. After all, you are offering an organisation a 'free' employee so why should you not agree with them a programme that gives both parties what they want? If you are prepared to guarantee an organisation 12 months of your time, why should they not put you through some training that would help you? I know there are several organisations that are very good at managing and training their volunteers. You may consider 'setting aside' the money you would have paid for your MSc and using it to pay for training/quals that are relevant to you e.g. NVC classification, if your employer cannot afford it. Places like Losehill Hall and Pas tan y Bwlch would, I am sure, have courses you could use. I am sure that a year of volunteering would stand you in excellent stead, but please do not give up applying for jobs. I have talked to several employers recently all of whom have found there have been far fewer applicants suitable for jobs than in the past. The moral is to make sure that your qualifications and experience match what the employer is looking for. Good luck Just so you know, I have a degree and post grad qual, spent a year volunteering full time for BTCV before my first paid (temporary job), spent 5 years as a Ranger, 1.5 years a paid BTCV employee and now 3 years as a FE lecturer in countryside management. I enjoyed my post grad course immensely, but I do not think it has ever been the reason I got any of my jobs. After all, my first employer did not need a postgrad to empty the dog bins or clean the loos (amongst the many other far more enjoyable tasks I did)! Details supplied. (ref: MVOL-R3)
►In reply to your dilemma, I would suggest going for the MSc option if you want to work in consultancy, as its my understanding that consultancy firms can charge their clients more for ecologists with higher qualifications. Therefore they are more likely to employ people with masters' for their permanent posts. If you have the energy I would also volunteer as much as you can for someone like the RSPB, especially if you can get them to invest in some training - eg first aid courses. I would also suggest keeping up your botany, as it is invaluable to have a speciality. I would expect you are unlikely to learn anything you don't already know which would be useful to you in a career in consultancy, if you volunteered for a year with the national trust. Good Luck Details Supplied (Ref: MVOL-R4)
►WB from Lincolnshire says: I would recommend doing a relevant MSc if you want to work in consultancy. A higher degree lends itself to the more academic nature of the job, with skills such as compiling reports and using GIS being highly valued. Both Aberdeeen and Bangor run excellent MSc in Ecology courses, with funding available for suitable candidates. As far as gaining relevant experience is concerned I would advise you to look at the schemes being run by Herefordshire Wildlife Trust and Somerset Environmental Records Centre. These two schemes provide you with just the type of experience that consultancies are looking for (species identification skills, Phase 1 and 2 habitat survey, GIS and a knowledge of wildlife legislation and the planning process). If you are looking for a scheme which includes habitat management then look at the one being run by the Cambridgeshire Wildlife Trust where you receive certified training in chainsaws, brushcutters, pesticides, first aid plus experience doing habitat surveys and writing management plans in return for a six month commitment. In conclusion, I think a combination of a relevant MSC and a structured training scheme would stand you in an excellent position for getting into consultancy. (Ref: MVOL-R5) WB in Lincolnshire returns and says: Just thought I would mention my recent experience. I have just finished an MSc in Ecology and fortunately have secured a full-time position as an ecologist within a consultancy. Whilst, I think my Masters certainly helped me secure several interviews and developed skills such as GIS and data analysis that will be useful later, the main reason I got interviews was due to my practical experience gained before the Masters. These consultancies look for a combination of a suitable academic background, evidence of analytical and report-writing skills and field experience in ecology surveys. If you are pressed for time and money then don't waste them by being a volunteer on a nature reserve. You will not be scrub bashing or fencing as an ecological consultant. The best approach is to develop your surveying skills instead. Most consultancies expect a decent level of botanical skill (enough to carry out a Phase 1 and NVC) but also an additional specialism (could be bats, water voles, birds etc). The thing I found most helpful was to shadow a local consultant for a few weeks. I carried out water vole and bird surveys and wrote a report afterwards. This way I had evidence of relevant work experience on my CV and a good reference. Search in the Commercial Directory of www.ieem.org.uk to find local consultants and then phone up and say you are looking for a little work experience. Believe me, I found this the most useful tactic. Finally, I recommend participating in some national surveys such as those organized by the BTO (Breeding Bird Survey) and the Bat Conservation Trust (National Bat Monitoring Programme). They require little commitment in terms of time, but again they indicate to a prospective employer commitment and experience. Good luck and keep us posted.... (Ref: MVOL-R5A)
► RH in Cornwall says: I had the same dilemma after completing a degree then being unemployed for 18 months! I did an MSc in Natural Resource Management and it has directly led to me getting my first job BUT not because of the qualification itself, more the fact that I managed to do my thesis in partnership with English Nature and the County Council - excellent references and a direct recommendation for a job. Plus I learnt so much which would take me years to learn elsewhere, and with a less biased perspective. I am lucky though - my boyfriend who did a masters in GIS is still unemployed and volunteering :( and we are both paying off gargantuan loans! (Ref: MVOL-R6)
► AB in Worthing says: My experience of trying to obtain a paid position after volunteering is most certainly a negative one. I volunteered for two organisations from 1991 to 1996. In the first organisation I was basically working full-time, running the office, organising work tasks and courses, driving the minibus, running courses and tasks; I always had positive feed-back on the quarterly reviews but every time I applied for a PAID post, I was rejected. When I volunteered for a national charity, doing similar work, I was told that I wouldn't get a job there without a degree. So if anyone advises you to volunteer as a means of getting paid work, they are misleading you, at least in my experience. I now work for a bank in IT; I loathe the job but at least they pay me. (Ref: MVOL-R7)
► In response to Education or experience, I would say experience! I did 2 yrs animal care, BSc Zoology and then MSc Environmental Management (Conservation) and it's got me precisely NOWHERE!! I did my MSc thesis for the local wildlife trust (whilst they let me do my work placement there). I have been graduated 2 years now and have had 1 interview at my local authority for a wildspace officer position ~ guess what I didn't have enough experience! I will say that an MSc will take up ALL your time if you're doing it right! My best tip is to get as many contacts in the industry as you can and use them all to the best of your abilities! Good luck. Details Supplied. (Ref: MVOL-R8)
► LM in Newcastle says: I would advise that you do a masters. I'm in roughly the same position as you but I decided to volunteer full time after I had finished my degree to gain experience and knowledge that my degree didn't give me. I think this is great and it was definitely the right thing for me to do as I didn't have much practical experience and don't know exactly what area of the sector I want to carve my career out of yet! However, in your case, you already have a years industrial placement and this is always looked upon favourably in my view. Therefore, if you know about things such as LBAP's and the like then I think targeting the areas you are really interested in with a masters would be a great move! That's just in my opinion though, others will probably disagree but that's what I would do if I were in your position! (Ref: MVOL-R9)
► CI in Ireland says: Hello there, I too faced exactly the same decision about 6 months ago. Since I’m looking to secure a position as a Consultant Ecologist, I contacted (read: pestered!) several consultancies throughout the UK. They were all certain that having an MSc would be much more advantageous. They also helpfully suggested that a Masters in Research would be a better option if you wanted more of that all too important practical experience. Both York & Imperial have excellent MSc and MRes courses and Imperial in particular have designed their MSc course with a much longer thesis than most other Uni's enabling us students to maximise the benefits of a survey / research project/s. In case you were wondering - that’s where I’m headed! If I do manage to get any spare time?! I’m going to volunteer my services to a local consultancy and try to gain a different aspect of experience, what harm can it do. I know it's going to be hard work and I realise the competition for this kind of position is immense but after 3 years in admin / reception I just can't wait to get stuck in, it’s all I ever wanted. Best of luck to you all.... (Ref: MVOL-R10) New Topic on 11/10/04 - Weekend scientific volunteering. LC in Avon says: Hi I am a geography graduate in the same position as 99.9% of the people on this board. Due to the lack of recognition of my degree I have decided to take on a master in conservation biology. I am currently in my year between courses and am stuck in an admin job going no where fast. I have tried getting voluntary experience but it seems that no organisation however large works over the weekend on a scientific level, how am I meant to save for a masters doing a 9-5 Monday to Friday and get experience? I am trying to break into the international sector and I am afraid it is all about who you know and not what you know. I have spent time in Africa and the researchers told me that if you want to do research there the only way in is to a PHD being mentored by an established researcher already out there otherwise you wont be accepted. It goes to show that you have to look for the back door which is a depressing idea when all you can see is the front door. Volunteering is all very well but if you want to have any money pay off debt and in the distant future move out of home it becomes all the more harder, no one will take a chance on a person all the boxes have to be ticked and some, but I am determined as I believe you have to be! (Ref: MCB) Replies:► I graduated with a good biology degree in 2002 and like you took a year out to save to do an MSc. During this time I worked full time in an office and managed to get some voluntary work by using (un-paid but well worth it) holiday time from my job. I also picked up skills by becoming a volunteer surveyor, which I was able to do at weekends. It depends what you are interested in but there are plenty of opportunities to do species surveys i.e. water vole or bats with your local Wildlife Trust or a local specialist group. You may also (depending on your personal circumstances) be able to volunteer for 3 days per week and claim job seekers allowance. The best piece of advice I can give you is to make your MSc project count i.e. don’t just do a project because it is interesting look at what you want to gain from it and tailor it to suit you. I found organisations were much keener to get involved with and support an MSc project compared to a BSc student project, as they would be getting more out of it. Finally, don’t get disheartened! After completing my MSc I had a short spell office temping and then picked up a short-term (well paid!) contract in the conservation sector. When this finished I went straight into my current permanent position, again in the conservation sector. Lucky? Probably, but I worked hard and was VERY determined. Incidentally - both of my employers said that the skills I picked up and demonstrated during my MSc project went along way to securing the job so I would recommend doing the course. You will probably find an MSc useful in securing a PhD to if you do decide to take that route. Details Supplied. (Ref: MCB-R1) New Topic on 17/2/06 - Deciding whether or not to do a PhD MG from Liverpool says: I am trying to decide whether or not to do a PhD. I'm about to graduate with a BSc in Ecology and then go travelling for a year. After that, I'm unsure. If I do a PhD, would it then restrict me to Post-Doc research posts and work in academia, and will I be regarded as overqualified for work in local authorities wildlife trusts, consultancies etc. I like the idea of a PhD and the training involved, but I want to keep my options open after that. Can anyone advise? (Ref: PHD) Replies:► I went through the University route...BSc, MSc and finally PhD. Before starting my PhD I worked as a consultant entomologist for 2 years abroad. I also volunteered with a local conservation group, which gave me great survey experience with protected species. I would advise you to do the PhD if the research is survey based or GIS based as this will give you the necessary skills to enter into consultancy work (especially if your PhD is based on mammals and birds). If its theoretical based, then you might find it difficult. Be prepared for long hours and no money as a student, and if you are lucky to get a job in conservation, to continue getting not much money (but for me, very high job satisfaction). I also really believe volunteering is a great way to get your face known and to learn new skills. I wouldn't change my student years for anything else! I do know others who got their PhD and haven't managed to get any jobs, so you have to persevere and show dedication by volunteering! Also, having seen quite a few bad application forms, get your CV checked out. Good luck! Details supplied (ref: PHD-R1)
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