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CJS Discussion Board - Training |
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You'll find: Bat Training & Licensing. lower down the page. Can anyone help? What’s ‘Ranger Training’?Just a query really. I recently got an application pack through for a job with Peak National Park. They asked for Park ranger level 2. My question is what is this training? Where, who, what...........??? I've done a basic ranger training week at Losehill NPA training centre, is this similar or the same?? Just interested that’s all. From AH, Peterborough. (Ref: RT) Replies:►1. 1.Hi. Ranger training in this context is 'The National Parks Rangers Award' - approximately equivalent to NVQ level 2 or 3 in 'Landscapes and Ecosystems', (level 3 being aimed more at the managerial staff) although the emphasis is more on National Park management. As this qualification focuses on and is geared towards working within the National Parks, naturally it is a favoured qualification as far as they're concerned. I have a copy of the standards (for both levels 2 & 3) and it seems that much of the content SHOULD be quantifiable as transferable skills or other appropriate experience/qualifications, provided that such can be demonstrated on your application form (or during assessment - should you be in the process of currently working toward it). Although it is often promoted as a 'nationally recognised qualification', I believe, in my capacity as an NVQ trainer/assessor & Internal Verifier that it is in reality, only recognised as far as the national parks are concerned - ergo, it not a 'recognised qualification' in the generally accepted sense of the word (with NPTC, QCA, EDEXCEL, etc.) Having said that, I also believe that such recognition is a target of its authors. HOWEVER I do not wish to undermine the awards authors or imply that the National Ranger's Award is in any way invalid, valueless, or unrecognised within the industry. I might also be wrong in my assessment of its status. It formalises much of what you might already be doing, and there would certainly be no harm in having it. If nothing else - it's another string to your bow, especially if it can be paid for from your staff training budget. Contact the appropriate (or nearest) National Parks Authority for more details. Good luck with the jobhunting anyway. Details supplied (Ref: RT-R1)
►2. I hold NVQ3 Env. Conservation (Landscapes & Ecosystems). I have trained/assessed Level 2 students. I was supposed to deliver the Course in a matter of a few months, not long enough in my opinion. I hold that such training should be 'hands on' and mainly in the countryside for a period of at least 12 months to ensure all 4 seasons are covered. No Matter What Academic Qualifications Are Held. 'Muck under your nails' (and in your boots) is the way to learn about the countryside, then get a job on a park to learn about the people who use it! Good Luck on the Job Hunt, but don't look for one if you live in Central Argyll no matter how qualified you are, there isn't a Local Authority Ranger Service here! Look in CJS Jobs Sheets to see what I mean! Details supplied (Ref: CT-R2)
CJS 11/12/02: It has been suggested that visiting the Peak District National Park website, the page: peakdistrict-npa.gov.uk/auth/services/rangers/awards.htm is the most direct. However we think this is probably the same as the course you've already done, CJS. Bat Training & Licensing. Click to see the Latest entry
SP of East Sussex writes: Before I begin let me first say that the following piece is in no way intended to offend the many sincere, dedicated and hard working persons in the world of bat conservation for whom I have the greatest respect. However, I find myself in a situation that is vexing and frustrating and would like to know if others who wish to train for a roost visitors license (bats) are facing the same difficulties. I work as a countryside ranger, am a graduate and looking to move into consultancy work with a particular interest in bats. Several years ago I developed a real interest in these fascinating animals and decided to look at pursuing my interest more seriously. At present, the only real way to obtain a license is to join a local bat group and try to be placed on the list of a licensed trainer who after enough time has passed will write a letter of reference to send with your application form for a license to English Nature. The trainer will only do this (quite rightly) after you have satisfied him / her that you have fulfilled a detailed and demanding criteria of competence. I started on this road several years ago, had one visit with a licensed trainer and was promptly dropped; I have been told since that I put his nose out of joint because I admitted my long term aims to enter into paid consultancy and basically, he doesn't like consultants. I have continued to find myself seemingly up against a brick wall and have recently lost another trainer who decided she could not find me suitable roost visits due to distance because I am to far away from her home base. It seems to me that as far as bats are concerned there are to few trainers and to many people wanting to do bat work. This places unreasonable pressure on voluntary groups and creates an environment where persons who for whatever reason, licensed trainers decide are not what the local group is looking for, are simply by passed and as such are never likely to be given any real sort of chance to train for a license. I feel it is totally wrong that people like myself who want to work in a field where they can do the most good are effectively prevented from doing so primarily out of what, in some who should know better, is clearly a case of elitism and prejudice toward the paid sector and I have to ask, how is this helping bat conservation? What is really needed is a suitable accreditation scheme designed for professional people who wish to train for a license; this would need to arise out of collaboration between the Bat Conservation Trust and English Nature. Is anyone else who reads this discussion board facing the same problems or are there any persons licensed who may be able to offer me some advice as I really feel at the end of my tether on this one. What concerns me most of all is that protected species are losing the opportunity of more licensed professionals to fight their corner due to an unsatisfactory situation. (ref: BATS)
►In reply on 9/9/03: If you are a member of the Bat Conservation Trust you will know that you have just missed a training course - last week - for consultants wishing to carry out bat work. There are also weekend courses for people wishing to obtain a licence - this is a bit of a crash course and not ideal but it would allow you to get your licence. Of course - most bat work carried out does not require a licence - only if you are actually entering roosts and disturbing bats which is not really necessary for carrying out most bat surveys. Details supplied. (Ref: BATS-R1) In reply to the person who mentions the Bat Conservation Trust (above), thank you for the input; I was not aware that going on the course you mention could allow someone to get a license and to be honest, this is totally contrary to what everyone else has told me. Thank you for the input though; regarding courses I have actually attended two courses this year at a collective cost of just under one thousand pounds; though I have certificates of attendance I was in no way given any indication that I could apply for a license on the basis of those attendances. One was the BCT course aimed at professionals, the other a Bats In Trees Course, the content of both was superb. I would be interested in your details as it would be helpful to talk some more on this. [If you would like to be put in contact please let CJS know and we will forward your details. CJS] Has anyone else out there been granted a licence on this basis? I am a member of the BCT as well as two county groups; last time I spoke to the BCT about the proposed accreditation scheme I was informed that BCT had decided they did not consider themselves the appropriate body to run it. I would also like to reiterate my initial comment that I have the utmost respect for the hard work put in by so many and if my original piece seemed a little strong and has caused any offence I apologise unreservedly. However if anyone else out there has any comments/ advice to add I will be grateful as so far I have been told that a person needs to be signed off by a licensed trainer before being considered for a license. Sincerely, original contributor (Ref: BATS-R1A)
►Sorry if I have misled you - I said there are also weekend courses for those wishing to work for a licence. These are specifically aimed for people wishing to get a licence - if you have been interested in bats for several years then a weekend course with bat trainers will show that you should have enough knowledge already to gain a licence. The Field Studies Council run the courses in England. I'm still not sure why you feel that a licence is essential for consultancy work as most survey work can be carried out without one. A licence is only necessary if you are actually entering bat roosts in the summer - you need a different one for hibernaculum. You could also contact English Nature who look for people to buddy bat workers on bat calls - you would be a volunteer of course but would gain a wide range of experience. I'm surprised that your local bat group is reluctant to take you out on calls - these do not need to be with a trainer but keep records such as roost report forms and notes on the visit. Details Supplied, Author of BATS-R1 (Ref: BATS-R2)
►ID of Hampshire says: I can understand your problems with the training aspects of obtaining a bat licence. However, bat groups need to have some return on the effort they put into training someone for a licence, which in a bat group's mind would be voluntary bat visits. On too many occasions would be bat worker volunteers have trained for a licence, only to disappear, then re-appear as a self styled bat consultant. The licensed trainer system was never designed for consultants, and having a licence does not qualify anyone to be a consultant. It is therefore predictable that bat groups or trainers generally are reluctant to train potential consultants. In Hampshire there are a number of 'potential' bat consultants wishing to train. The agreement, as trainer, I have got with these individuals is that they train to the standard of a volunteer roost visitor (usually about 10 English Nature type visits + a training course over the period of a year, then commit themselves to 20 EN bat visits before using their licence professionally. The advantages are that individual gets 'more' experience, but is doing visits as a volunteer for EN, so the responsibility is less and the bat group/EN get more bat visits done. This system is not perfect, but there are benefits for all, especially the bats. If consultants accept that you can't get a bat licence over a weekend (being the most difficult group of protected species to work with) and undertake to serve this small apprenticeship, then I see no reason why everybody can't get what they want. (Ref: BATS-R3) In reply: Dear ID, I would just like to take this opportunity to compliment you on your honest but sensible way you address the issue of training consultants; I concur with everything you say. I think a lot of the problem is the history you mention, i.e. consultants getting their licence and then off they go without so much as a thank you, leaving the bat group feeling well and truly taken for a ride. This of course, invokes a feeling of mistrust when future consultants come along looking for training, culminating in a situation that is neither in the bats interest or at all helpful to those who wish to work professionally in the bat conservation sector. I personally have always made it clear that I wish to work in both the voluntary and paid sector, partly for the very reason you state, that is I want to put something back into the system when licenced and continue to support the voluntary groups who have helped me in the first place, (I consider this the right way to go about it) and partly because bats are just so much of a pleasure to have around. Fortunately I now have a trainer again and am hoping things will continue to look positive next year and so on. Kind regards to yourself and all the other bat workers who tirelessly contribute to the conservation of these wonderful animals. Original contributor (Ref: BATS-R3A) HA from Devon comments: I'm curious, do you have a licence yet? I am in the same position as you were back in 2003, I am happy to pay for individual training but cannot find anyone to take my money. BCT state that they do not give references and will not give out the contact details of bat trainers due to the constraints of the Data Protection Act. £500 is a lot of money for a course and for a vague return, money I cannot afford to spend. Apparently bat trainer licence holders are under no obligation to train anyone if they don't want to and as they don't advertise themselves how is anyone who's time is constrained by earning a living expected to train. I want to schedule my training to my work and will pay to do so but cannot find anyone to take me on. I have nothing against local interest groups but don't want to spend my weekend away from my family, particularly when I am away all week. Furthermore I fail to see why my application for a licence should be subject to input by the local bat group who, if I can't make their meetings, won't know who I am anyway. It is a matter for my trainer and EN, no one else. I disagree with the comment that bats are the most difficult group to work with as most survey work can be carried out without any disturbance to the animal concerned. Try working with white clawed crayfish chum. This is not rocket science folks and frankly people want training for a rapidly expanding market so you might as well get your head round it before someone you disapprove of gets a training licence and sets up a highly lucrative school, taking away your right to comment entirely. IEEM your members need training, what say you? (Ref: BATS-R3B)
►I have also been looking at getting my bat licence. As with the original author, it would be for consultancy work in the long-term. There are a growing number of consultancies that I have applied to that require a bat licence - regardless of the need or lack for the actual surveys being undertaken. The consultancies seem to be heading towards cover all potential problems and ensure all surveyors have the pieces of paper to support what they do. As regards voluntary work, I assisted with bat surveys, shows/talks and injured bats for 5 years or so in the East Midlands area but at the time did not feel it was necessary to gain the certification although it was offered. I now wish I had done this at that time as I do not have the spare time to devote to a local group at the moment due to my present job commitments. If a weekend training course/examination was possible this would be a brilliant way of updating my skills. Certainly in a less time demanding job I would be offering my time as a volunteer again but this is currently not possible. Details supplied. (Ref: BATS-R4)
► AC in London says: I agree with the original message. I have been involved in environmental recruitment for several years mainly within consultancy. My clients are desperate for individuals with Bat Licenses. Whether or not it makes a huge difference to the work you can carry out, a job seekers chances of gaining work in consultancy will be greatly increased if they do have a bat license. Having said that, individuals with bat surveying experience should be able to get in to consultancy at present as long as they can convince employers of their commercial skills. There may then be opportunities to gain the license on the job. (Ref: BATS-R5)
► I do agree with all of the above comments, as far as training people, consultants in particular, to gain a bat licence. The time and effort required by both parties (the trainers and the 'student') involved in the training needs to result in some benefit for both. Ideally, the local bat group or BCT should end up with a suitably qualified person, who not only carried out work whilst training, but continues to do so after their licence has been awarded. In return, the trainee ends up with a licence that may benefit them, career wise and a wealth of knowledge that they gained during the training, that they would have otherwise never received. What must be remembered is that the common goal of everyone involved in bat work, whether they be consultants, volunteers, members of the BCT, whatever, is to preserve and hopefully increase populations of all species of bat through a variety of methods. As such, isn't it important that all persons involved in bat work receive a certain level of training? Without wishing to offend any consultancies who do train their staff thoroughly, there are a number who do not provide adequate training for their staff to carry out bat surveys, for which you don't necessarily need a licence. This can result in situations where evidence of bat activity may be missed, resulting in the destruction of bat roosts, that should have been identified. And given that it is consultants that are the people who are most likely to be carrying out surveys for developers and other organisations who wish to renovate or knock down areas which potentially support bats, isn't it even more important that consultants are trained properly by people who know what they are talking about? Regardless of whether a licence is eventually forthcoming to a consultant, shouldn't there be a more structured approach to what training a person receives before they can go out and survey for bats. I find the reluctance of certain members of the voluntary sectors to consider any form of training for a consultant negligent to the cause that they are fighting for. Details Supplied (Ref: BATS-R6)
► It is a while since I have looked at this section and find the gentlemans comments enlightened and refreshing. I could not agree more, there is far to much emphasis placed on the issue of whether someone wishes to train to become a consultant or a voluntary roost visitor. The fact that the person wishes to train in the first place shows both an interest in bats and a desire to learn how to work with bats properly, in the animals best interest. Both of those are things that should be encouraged and nurtured. What happens all to often is that a local group gets wind of the fact that a trainee may wish to ultimately carry out some professional work and the mistrust sets in. This happened to me several times and I almost gave it up altogether. This is a loss to all parties concerned but most of all to bats. Also many groups have at least one or two members who also work as consultants. Does this not then become a question of not wanting to train up competition? I now have a scientific/ professional license which I gained by investing a lot of time and money in professional training courses backed up by as much experience as I could get through local bat groups. I do not though have a voluntary roost visitors license so am not able to help the local groups with voluntary calls, though I would like to. Also after I obtained my licence at least one person from a local group complained to English Nature because My trainer (who holds an all counties licence) completed my training in another county and did not therefore need to consult the local group. It is that sort of attitude and petty mindedness that actually prevents persons from making their contribution to these wonderful creatures be it through the voluntary or professional sector. What matters here are the bats, they need as many licensed bat workers looking out for them as possible. Surely what really matters is that persons are trained to a standard that enables them to work in the best possible way for bats; does it really matter what they use their license for provided it is done legally, responsibly and in the best interest of bats. In fact do we really need to have a conservation license and a survey license as two separate items? After all, basic survey skills are the same irrespective of whether a person is in a private loft or a commercial building due to be pulled down. Lets get away from this issue of voluntary or commercial and see more of a willingness to work together as far as training issues are concerned. To be fair though, much more effort needs to be made by English Nature and the Bat Conservation Trust in putting together some sort of accredited programme that would suit one and all. It is not fair to put all the onus on local bat groups who do a splendid job in many different ways. A suppose as with everything else in life it is the attitude of a few that spoils it and I am sure that happens in both the voluntary and commercial sectors. Happy batting to all. S.P. East Sussex (ref: BATS-R7)
► I have recently been looking into training as a bat advisor and made an attempt to find out how this might be done. I too discovered I had to join a local bat group. They generally seemed a bit unwelcoming and led me to believe that I had to put in a great deal of volunteer hours before they would ‘consider’ if I was fit to train or not. Then I was told that they would train me themselves as they went along…and no timeframes as to when I would ‘qualify’ were offered. I looked at the Bat conservation trust site at the courses which certainly seemed concise and professional but I was told I wouldn’t be able to do a course unless I had done this type of odd initiation with a bat group. The impression I have been left with is that there is no professional route to training with bats at all –a great shame when I am always hearing that we are short of good bat consultants. The system currently in place (if you can even call it a system) is on a casual unofficial basis. I have a Masters degree in behavioural ecology and a degree in acoustics and I am constantly being told it would be great for me to get into bat work. The BTC ought to be leading the way in creating solid training independently of bat groups. Details supplied (ref: BATS-R8)
► SP from East Sussex wants to add: Dear contributor, I may well be replying to an old submission as I have not checked this section for a while, but do notice that your submission was not there last time I looked. I am sorry to hear that you are having trouble and agree that it does make a bit of a nonsense of it all when would be bat workers seem to have so many problems getting help yet we are always hearing that there is a real shortage of bat consultants! To be fair voluntary bat groups were never set up to train bat advisors or consultants and many are reluctant to do this feeling it is not their place and that priority ought to go to those wishing to train for an English Nature conservation (roost visitors) licence. My own conviction is that more bat group members should be willing to help potential bat consultants in the best interest of bats, if not for the individual. I can only try and offer some words of encouragement; I did eventually get my licence. Do join a bat group and try to gain any experience you can but do also attend the BCT courses for professionals; they are excellent. Also go to as many talks as you can, conferences, walks and just about anything batty. These all count as part of training and keep a log of anything you do. It is NOT true though that you have to have previous experience to attend BCT courses, it IS true that you will need to gain practical experience alongside any courses to gain a licence. Also BCT courses will enable you to meet others in the same position as well as licensed trainers who sometimes tutor these courses. One of these tutors eventually signed me off for a scientific survey licence which enables me to carry out commercial work but not assist with English nature voluntary visits. I think this highlights just how daft it is having two separate licenses but that is how the system is and until someone is able to change it I suspect many more will follow the same course of action. Personally I would very much like to be able to help with voluntary roost visits but there we go. Don't give up, it is worth it if you persevere for long enough. (ref: BATS-R9)
► The situation is pathetic. The sooner a trainer sets up an intensive course the better. I will end up running one myself if someone doesn't beat me to it... Details supplied (ref: BATS-R10)
► I am an ex-ranger, now a consultant, and have held a bat conservation (note conservation not consultancy) licence for 12 years and find some of the comments on this thread worrying. The whole point of licencing people to work with bats is to protect the animals, not to provide employment opportunities. Licencing does, or should, protect bats from undue disturbance by firstly training people how to act when in a roost and secondly by limiting the number of people who can disturb roosts thereby lessening the potential of disturbance. A licence is not required for the vast majority of consultancy work which does not involve contact with the animals in their roosts and there are perfectly adequate training courses available from BCT for consultancy work. The minority of cases where roosts have to be entered can be subbed to the local bat group. So please, if you are intending applying for a roost visitor licence, make sure it is because you want to work toward the protection and conservation of bats, not as a passport to a well paid job. That way perhaps the bat group trainers, who do their work for free, will be more likely to accept you. Details supplied (BATS-R11)
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