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CJS Discussion Board - Experience Required. |
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This topic is now beginning to cross over with Slave Wages so to prevent duplication please read both. New on 9/1/04: AD from Wiltshire asks: Why does every employer insist on at least 3-5 years paid experience. to have this you have to have worked and no one will give you a job if you don't have this. Its the old "catch 22" syndrome. (its a wonder this working sector can survive with all these regulations etc they impose) (Ref: EXP04) Original Starting thread: The one thing that has struck me recently is that new positions are not being created for those with little direct experience. I mention this to compliment the point about salaries because it seems that few new jobs are appearing. This means that basically, the same vacancies are just circulating on a regular basis. A post is filled by someone with experience and another vacuum is created. Surely this is not helping to get fresh blood into the environmental sector! The other problem is that many positions are going internally but legal constraints mean that they have to be advertised externally. If one has applied for masses of jobs then this can become terribly discouraging. Indeed, I have had strong hints that I have been victim of this latter situation. Unfortunately, I cannot think of a solution except to ask potential employers to be a little more honest. A lot of effort goes into applications for jobs and it would be nice to know that we are not constantly wasting this. Details supplied (Ref: Exp) Replies:►1. From: Details supplied replies on 2/9/02: Speaking as a recent graduate from a countryside management degree, I have found it very difficult to break into this industry. I believe I have the qualifications to succeed in this line of work, with a very good degree and two vocational qualifications in countryside management. I have some experience (2 years) working on practical conservation projects (although not at management level) but have found myself not even getting to interview stage on the 100+ jobs I have applied for. (I don't know if this sounds familiar to a lot of readers out there). So what is the answer? Well current advice tends to be along the lines of "get yourself some voluntary experience", this is all well and good if you have no ties, i.e. family, mortgage, etc, but this does limit the volunteers to those young folk who have just finished their education and are in effect still living under their parents roofs. Even if you can afford to work for nothing for a year or two, what sort of experience will you gain, I would hazard a guess that it would not be the project management experience that most positions seek. From where I am now it seems almost impossible to get my foot in the door (please show me I am wrong somebody!). There must be a way, and if anyone can give pointers or even hope please post something. -- Thanks – (ref: Exp-R1) In reply to 2/9/02: Welcome to the wonderful world of countryside management! I don't know what type of positions that you have been applying for, but I'm afraid that no matter what your qualifications you will generally have to start at the bottom. When we advertise for an estate worker (salary £8-12000) where I work we will want at least a National Diploma, NPTC chainsaw, brushcutter and pesticide certificates, recognised training in tractors and implements and hopefully a first aid at work certificate. I'm not saying it is right, but a degree means very little (I should know I've got one) unless you have these practical qualifications you are very unlikely to get a job or even an interview. For some good info on getting a job, try naturenet (sorry I know I'm not meant to do that [that’s okay we sponsor them! – CJS] ) find it in the links section [or off the home page – CJS], they know what they are talking about. Details supplied (ref – EXP-R1A) And in reply to the above: on 2/10/02 SP of East Sussex says: I feel I must comment on the gentlemans statement that his organisation requires at least a brushcutter certificate, chain saw certificate, etc as well as a first aid certificate before an applicant will even be looked at. Of course I respect the fact that an employer is in a difficult position as he/ she has to justify expenditure on staff as well as any other financial outlay from budget and that has to be coupled with potential candidates fulfilling certain criteria and the employer trying to ensure the best candidate is offered the post. Having said that this demonstrates precisely the point made by someone else that basically there is a chronic lack of paid positions offering the opportunity to get in at the bottom and work up through experience gained whilst earning a wage coupled with training; the fact of the matter is that in this industry at the bottom usually means unpaid as a volunteer or on such a low budget placement that the only people who can afford to take them are those still living at home, or those very fortunate people who are well enough off for it not to matter anyway. The certificates the gentleman says his organisation expect cost hundreds of pounds and many people are unable to either afford this or afford to work so many days a week unpaid to get placements on training programmes leading to these practical qualifications. In any other industry there are opportunities for people to get in on the ground floor and work there way up whilst earning a living at the same time. The voluntary movement is a wonderful thing ( I still work as a volunteer from time to time, despite being in paid employment) but I cannot help feeling that many employers have effectively cashed in on this with the consequence that potential candidates need skills and qualifications to get in at the lowest level that are way above those expected in any other industry at start off point.. Let's face it, if you walked into a factory and were told that there were no vacancies but if you were prepared to work for nothing that might improve your chances of getting a post if one did arise your answer would probably not be repeatable! On that note I have probably said enough. (Ref: EXP-R1AA) Λ On 17/11/03: WB, Lincs says: To my knowledge it seems far harder for young people to break into the nature conservation sector in this country compared to others. In many other European countries areas of ecological importance are owned and managed by governments who offer structured training programs. I think the problem in this country is caused by the proliferation and domination of the voluntary bodies that exploit their culture of volunteering and fail to make a commitment to those serious about entering the profession. I assume they can also get away with this because there is an oversupply of applicants. The only structured program I know of is the National Trust Careership, and that accepts only a handful of applicants a year. I am, as a recent graduate seeking experience, finding that even if you agree to a substantial voluntary commitment many of these organizations (with their ever growing budgets) are unwilling to even provide basic training - without which it is almost impossible to find a job. I am trying to think of practical ways round this problem, and I am sure many will be in a similar situation. In the organization I volunteer for may of the current rangers were late entrants into the field after having worked in practical trades such as farming, building, forestry and horticulture. All of these professions offer better pay and prospects for training than does nature conservation. I know this is no consolidation for someone who has completed an environmental course and has a passion to work in this sector, but the situation is that it is very hard without existing skills. For would be managers or consultants a period in the private sector might be looked on favourably. Environmental consultancies require business awareness as well as environmental knowledge and I have applied for a graduate training program with a resource extraction company in the hope that the prospects of structured business training and a sponsored MSc would enable me to move back into environmental consultancy work at a later date. Just as other professions may look favourably on those transferable skills picked up through conservation volunteering so conservation should recognise those acquired through other lines of work. You can pick up many of the practical skills such as tool and machinery use by working in other areas - probably to a higher level than in conservation. There are also so many opportunities for voluntary environmental work available that it is perfectly possible to continue developing your interest at the same time as working. Working is also a good way to fund any more extensive voluntary work if it is required. I know it is not easy but perseverance and flexibility are key to landing a job. (ref: EXP-R1AB)
► Replies 2. AH, of Peterborough replies. I have to say I agree with you. My predicament is that I am a commercial forestry graduate, with two and a half years in the industry, then two years as a ranger out in the USA. Along with voluntary experience and vocational qualifications that I picked up on the way, I found it increasingly hard to change focus, even with a biological background. I joined my local, conservation volunteer group, its part time, fun and helps your direct local area. Chainsaw, pesticides etc help a lot as well, you need to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. I will admit I am lucky, taking the breaks as soon as they came along and I know it’s hard with a family etc. But its hard for us all, I'm studying for my BSc now part time, I'm really feeling the pinch, it happens that I've got a very understanding employer, who pushes us to improve our level of training (its in their interest as well). Try looking into training grants, or subsidised training through BTCV? [see links CJS] That’s my two pence worth, remember its easy to look at your dream job, it'll take longer to get there, but you'll reap the benefits from working your way up. (Ref: Exp-R2)
►In response to experience required 2/09/02 -It was with great interest, but little surprise, that I read the comments relating to the absence of graduate opportunities in countryside management. The irritation expressed clearly reflects my own experience. I returned to university as a mature post-graduate student hoping to demonstrate through academic application the value of transferable skills gained in private sector project management roles. Whilst I have been able to secure two interviews I remain unemployed after one year of full-time application form filling. Most notably I have found that feedback from failed applications is always complimentary and positive although failing in any way to be informative. I suspect a standard pre-prepared script is used. When asking for feedback after not succeeding at interview much the same can be said, with an additional comment that the selected candidate demonstrated more experience in an area not identified as either essential or desirable on the job and person spec. Where the advertised post is in the public sector I am now forced to accept that understanding the workings of a public sector workplace is of considerably more importance that specialist knowledge of the main duties of the post. Countryside management needs to recruit committed and intellectually capable creative thinkers to ensure that we retain a sustainable countryside for future generations. Many of the countryside initiatives (national parks) currently being implemented demonstrate the foresight and efficacy of a typically work weary local authority civil servant. I really do think that many of the problems faced by the countryside will require a little more than the application of chainsaw and brushcutter. (See welcome to the wonderful world of countryside management (ref exp-R1) Details Supplied (Ref: Exp-R3) In reply to the above on 18/10/02: I too am caught in this ‘relevant experience’ trap, having recently graduated as a mature student (with the accompanying student loan debt) I find that despite 15 years pre-graduate experience I cannot even get a basic conservation job. Like the other contributors I am being fed the same line of insufficient experience, usually in a specific area, and that if I could get this experience I would be in a better position to break into the sector. This, I suspect, this means undertaking voluntary work which I cannot afford to do. I have great reservations regarding much of the voluntary work on offer especially when the organisation specifies that qualifications are needed just to secure the voluntary position - if an organisation recognises that this work is needed within their organisation then it is a job and should be paid. The sector is already riddled with too many short-term contracts that offer no long-term stability or employment protection, without degrading it still further by offering us the opportunity to ‘work for nothing’. Paid environmental jobs are certainly amongst the lowest around. This is often apparent when comparing the pay with that say of the organisations Marketing or Finance Dept., clearly a recognition by the company that they need to pay minimum salaries to these qualified and experienced staff in order to appoint/retain them as they could easily command higher salaries in other sectors, whilst environmental / conservation workers are limited in their scope of potential employers and consequently have to accept the lower salaries, terms and conditions (e.g. short fixed-term contracts). As this seems to be the national state of the industry I fear that the next generation of rangers, conservationists, ecologists etc.. will inevitably be drawn from typical white, upper-middle class families, who went to university ‘at the right age’ (18-21) and were able to follow this with 1-2 years voluntary work. This will hardly strengthen the image of an industry, which is often seen as ‘woolly’ and not relevant to our wider society. It seems to me that the five topics currently being discussed on the CJS are all essentially linked to the same basic issue namely – the need for the senior management in all sectors (public, private business and the NGO’s) to fight for greater recognition of the Environment sector and its employees. Unlike most other industries the Environment sector doesn’t (to my knowledge) have a united and vocal representative body/union working for its members e.g. like the UNISON or the NFU – perhaps we need one. What does IEEM (Institute of Ecology and Environmental Management) do for its members on these matters? Details supplied (Ref: EXP-R3A) MW of Leicestershire replies: The Countryside Management Association is a body representing the views of all people working in countryside and urban areas. You do not have to be a member. You will find links through naturenet or [CJS Links]. Go to their discussion boards and talk direct to the people who are making the decisions and doing the hiring!!! (Ref: EXP-R3AA)
► On 2/10/02: SP of East Sussex replies: I am replying to the several pieces I have read regarding the above issue and have to say that I both feel considerable empathy with several of the writers and can relate, from personal experience, to a number of the points raised. I have been working in the environmental sector on and off for about eight years and have been in my first permanent post for almost two of those years. So far, I have found the industry incredibly tough as an employment market and yes, I to, have felt utterly demoralised at times. Though I appreciate that managers with responsibilities for recruitment are in a very tough position themselves I do feel there is not enough emphasis on in-house training in paid posts, basically employers will not pay to train new members of staff if they can get either volunteers who are able to work without wages in return for training, or new paid staff who already hold the certificates and practical skills for the post vacant. this puts people like myself who chose the environmental sector later in life at a financial and qualified disadvantage, I, for example can neither afford to pay out hundreds of pounds for chainsaw etc, or work without wages to acquire those certificates, so that any post that comes up requiring say, chain saw and pesticide certificates is one that I may as well not bother applying for. Though I accept there should not be a free lunch box in any walk of life I do feel it is wrong that there are so many people out there with skills commitment and dedication putting an awful lot of effort into making themselves employable who are quite frankly unlikely to get a look in because an employer will always say that they need a little more experience. Also what other industry takes it as read that one of the entry requirements is that people should be expected to work for nothing to get experience before anyone will even consider them? and if they cannot afford to do that then how will that candidate ever get experience if no employer is prepared to offer them a post in which they can gain experience? Finally, equal opportunities does have a bearing here, though I wholly endorse the principles the act stands for I cant help wondering if it is not sometimes somewhat of an Achilles heel to potential employees and employers alike. Is it not time that employers started to recognise the efforts of some a little more and accept that sometimes just a little experience coupled with a lot of dedication and a little help from an employer can make for a very useful member of staff? (Ref: Exp-R4)
► on 11/10/02: I have just read with great interest all the comments on the subject of "experience". My daughter a recent Environmental Studies Graduate (2.1) with a year's placement experience in Norfolk with English Nature actually holds chain-saw and pesticide licences, has bushcutter, fourwheel drive and tractor experience and a lot more besides but still the same old problem "not enough experience". Employers used to want 1 yrs experience now all the jobs advertised seem to express 3 yrs - what has a young person to do to get a decent job in an area they feel strongly about. The Government are encouraging moor and more youngsters to go to University but, as my daughter says, is the point when you can't get a job at the end of it. She currently feels that the last four years were a complete waste of time. She has had interviews but the jobs always go to more "experienced" applicants. As another contributor said, "voluntary work is not always a practical option" people need to live somewhere and be able to feed and clothe themselves and parents cannot do this forever!!!! Details supplied. (Ref: EXP-R5) In reply to R5 above, PL of London says: As a recent Masters graduate I am facing these difficulties (although I am trying not to be disheartened!). There have been several comments that recent graduates who have no ties and parental support are at an advantage. In my experience so far, and that of my peers, these benefits have not appeared. Leaving uni with the obligatory debt means that voluntary work is not an option - indeed many of us are having to start temping to raise the cash needed to support yourself during voluntary work and to pay for any training needed. With many jobs wanting 1 or 2 years experience, this adds up to a lot of temping work required. I had always assumed that those who have been out of uni for a long period would find it easier to get work, having had a chance to raise money and experience. It seems it is hard for all. I also have to comment on the lack of feedback from failed applications - I am finding that I often receive no acknowledgement at all, let alone feedback. This is fairly disheartening from what is meant to be a 'caring' industry. (ref: EXP-R5A)
► On 18/10/02: I have a great deal of sympathy for anyone who has been to college or university for 2/3/4 years and has undertaken to work in a voluntary role too, and then finds him/herself unemployed. I think, however, an obvious point needs to be stated - the job market is a market after all, and whether we like it or not, there are more people looking for countryside jobs than there are jobs. Therefore employers can pick and choose from a large pool of applicants, hence their high expectations of employing someone with qualifications and experience. Someone undertaking a course in countryside management needs to be made explicitly aware that they are beginning a journey fraught with difficulty and frustration. There is no easy cure for this situation, either more jobs are created - where's the funding for this? - or fewer people enter the countryside job market ! Maybe the latter would come about if people were better informed. Details supplied, (Ref: Exp-R6)
► On 28/10/02: I am on the verge of giving up. I have got a job sweeping the floors of a local pharmaceutical company that pays £12,500. It is now difficult to find time to apply for jobs. So I think I will write off 3 years gaining a countryside management degree (first class by the way), two years of vocational countryside qualifications, two years of paid employment and two years of voluntary work. Ok, I will have no job satisfaction but at least I will be able to pay the rent and buy some food. See you all at the Job centre. Details Supplied (Ref: EXP-R7) In reply on 31/10: To the writer of the last piece on 28/10 -don't give up!!! I've been trying since 1997 to get full-time paid employment in the field. I have felt just like you many times, but I keep plugging on - because we care about what we want to do, we must keep going. The environment needs dedicated people - not just careerists. Use the job you have at the moment to pay the bills, but keep trying - and good luck to all of us in the same boat! Details Supplied (Ref: EXP-R7A) SW of West Wales says: To all those graduates, I too am a graduate, I returned as a mature student to study countryside management after the usual gaining of practical qualifications.. six years in total. So, my point is, that had you studied the market place in which you were intending to work, then you would have realised that most work is done by vols and contractors. Most organisations now only employ 1 estate worker and some management. This is the way of things. To that end, I now run a small contracting business, and I'm very busy. The problem here is that most work goes out to competitive tender. After 14 months I have plenty of work, and now employ a part time labourer. Things are building nicely. Ironically, local organisations cannot find people to undertake practical tasks. My suggestion is reconsider what part of the countryside you fit best into, remember...its slash and burn or digging holes...in the rain..good luck. (ref: EXP-R7B)
► On 19/11/02: Hello All. I too am in the same precarious position as many of you. Having worked nearly full time for the duration of my degree course I also had little time to gain any 'experience'. I have managed to get an interview for a part time rangering job and am hoping that this may be my foot in the door. I studied a degree in geography, this may not be as focused as some of the countryside management degrees (whether that is good or bad is open to debate) but I still feel that I have many relevant skills and experiences in a diverse range of topics. All I can say is don't give up trying, use that determination that got you through your educational career and refocus it. I know its disheartening ( I've sent off loads of applications to) just keep plugging away. Also be confident in what you know and what you've done as this is portrayed in your application and how it is written. Good Luck to ALL!!! Details supplied (Ref: EXP-R8)
►RC of Aberystwyth says on 7/1/03: As a relatively successful graduate in my mid-twenties, now working in CM for the past 5 years, let me try and offer some ideas, that MAY help some of you get noticed. 1. Consider parallel industries; (i) there is a desperate shortage of forestry contractors. A chainsaw cert. and willingness to work very hard in dreadful weather, will earn you a salary, and get experience under your belt (In my experience not many graduates can hack this type of work for long). (ii)Ecological consultancies are also regularly looking for field workers - BUT you will need a specialism. Use your spare time to develop an interest and CONTACTS. Talking to the right people and being in the right place can really improve your chances. Don't get over qualified! Find out what people whose jobs you aspire to have, or wish they had. MSc's and PhD's should not be necessary for most CM jobs. Finally, always be friendly, positive, and interested. Work hard, even if you're not getting paid. I still work full-time, do some freelance work, and am very involved with a national conservation charity - and regularly put in 80hrs/wk. If it doesn't work, try something else! (Ref EXP-R9)
► On 4/3/03 (good news for a change!): Following 19/11/02, I had the interview and am now working as a part-time ranger for a County Council. I am thoroughly enjoying myself and even though its only part-time, I am hoping that this will eventually lead onto other things. Keep having a go and applying, it will be worth it!!! Details Supplied. (Ref: EXP-R10)
► CB of Hertfordshire says: I also am suffering from the 'lack of experience' syndrome. I went to university straight out of school to read Environmental Studies and graduated last year. I have been volunteering two days a week with the Wildlife Trust since, whilst undertaking paid work in a shop just to pay the bills. Coming from a working class family with four much younger siblings, my parents were not able to support me throughout the degree or afterwards. Although it may have been through my own naivete, I was not aware of the experience required for employment. At 17, whilst applying for university my school made it seem like a degree was the most important thing. Now being £15,000 in debt at 21, struggling to set up my own home, I am stuck in a spiral. To further my career, I really need to be able to volunteer on a full time basis. Two days a week will take me years to get the required experience and all the while I am suffering from financial hardships and need to earn more. Conservation is my passion and I could live with the low wages for the thought of the job satisfaction that I would receive as a reserve warden/officer. I am now left with a very difficult decision: continue the financial hardship for the possibility of landing my desired job, or go into full time employment and put my passion aside until I have saved up enough money to volunteer in a couple of years time. I cannot describe my frustration and overall depression at the whole situation and I truly sympathise with those of you have been suffering from the 'relevant experience' syndrome for years. Good luck to you all, I think we are going to need it! (Ref: EXP-11)
► I feel for the people that have been so disheartened by the struggle to get a job in this industry. I have just been employed for my first season after two long years of study, volunteering and 100's of application forms. So it does happen. The only encouragement that I can give to people feeling like packing it all in is don't keep going, it may seem like your hitting your head off of a brick wall but it does happen. Also keep volunteering and get your face known to as many people as possible because I'm sorry to say that getting that first job can come down to who you know not what you know. Details supplied. (ref: EXP-R12)
► I find the above points a little ironic. We have just advertised for three posts, ranging from an Assistant Warden ( £12,500 starting salary, one years experience (vol or paid) and a basic qualification) up to a Senior Warden (£19,000, 3 years experience). We have advertised in CJS (of course), the Guardian and local papers. We have had the grand total of 29 applicants for the three posts. Of these about 50% meet the criteria and I am sure that we will be able to appoint 3 very suitable people from these short shortlists. My point is that if you don't ask you don't get. Surely there are suitably qualified and experienced people out there, so why aren't we receiving applications from them? The only thing I can think of is that we are an urban countryside service and lack the appeal of The Lakes or Cotswolds (or indeed any rural area). Well sorry, but beggars can't really be choosers when it comes to suitable jobs. Although an urban service we do all the things that 'real' countryside managers do - habitat management, access improvements, school and visitor tours, etc. It's just that we don't have nice panoramic views! Urban countryside management is as important, dare I say more important in some cases, then rural countryside management. We all know the old story of children not knowing where milk comes from - it's true! All I'm saying is don't knock it until you've tried it. Details supplied (ref: EXP-R13) GK of Cambs says: I would suggest that you read the Slave Wages section for a possible reason why you received as few applications as you did. When I started working in the industry (at a urban fringe site with no nice vistas etc) I was earning around £15 000. I'm afraid that asking for someone with a degree(?), 3 years experience and management skills and paying them £19 000 isn't really acceptable for most of the people rising through the countryside management industry anymore. (Ref: EXP-R13a)
► AS of Bucks says: In response to many of the articles posted on this topic, may I add my thoughts. Many jobs in countryside management, particularly National Trust Warden/ English Nature Site Manager posts, require the holder to be part farmer/part tree surgeon/ part handyman first and foremostly. Don't get me wrong - I am not undervaluing these posts or the importance of possessing relevant academic qualifications and naturalist skills/knowledge. However; if you are applying for a post as a ranger/warden of a woodland nature reserve without already possessing a chainsaw certificate and practical arboricultural knowledge and experience, what good would you be to the management, even if you are a competent woodland naturalist with an MSc? Get the relevant practical qualifications: the necessary naturalist/management skills can always be learnt later 'on the job'. (Ref: EXP-R14)
► DM from Lancs says on 26/11/03: greetings everybody! I'm gonna say my bit now. I am lucky enough to work in the environmental sector and have worked for the charity for two and half years. I went to college and did a diploma in farming and left with not much but was determined to gain the relevant experience to gain entrance into this field. I worked seasonally in Scotland on a large shooting estate gaining experience of estate management, when the season was over i would come back and work at anything to make money (bar work, Factory work etc) then I did some farming, then some landscaping eventually becoming a volunteer officer for the BTCV and from there I went to a factory and then AT LAST I got my current job of etf supervisor. My point for all this info is that just because you've got a degree doesn't mean the industry should open its arms to you. I've had about 8 years experience in practical conservation management I run my own team carrying out from start to finish environmental projects whilst training unemployed people in the various skills of countryside management. My point is this, that the discussion goes both ways. It took years for me to get into this line of work and even though I have the practical skills to do the job I find that when I apply for other jobs I get pushed aside because someone has a degree that says he/she can carry out practical conservation tasks that they did in a two week placement or in a class room, its terribly annoying. I know people who have degrees coming out of their ears but are absolutely useless out in the field! As far as I'm concerned a degree is useful in something like research and stuff like that but for ranger/practical posts its not essential. Don't get me wrong its good thing to have one but in this line of work its not the be all and end all. Practical experience gets the job done!!!. Thanks for listening to my diatribe, keep trying its worth it!!! (ref: EXP-R15)
► This is a general comment to just some of the 'complaints' below. Fact 1. Most of these jobs many of you are complaining about are with charities/NGOs with limited resources. Don't like it? Speak to your MP because the only way funding will be improved for our countryside is through central (and devolved) governments. 2. Many of the projects you would like to work on are part of one-off funding packages. Fixed term contracts which need the job-holder to hit the ground running, not spend 6 months training on core skills. 3. Why would an employer take on someone needing additional training/experience when there are 20 (or even 200) applicants who already have that experience? 4. Yes the wages can be poor, and yes the job is hard, but it's market driven - as long as there are hundreds of qualified, experienced applicants wanting to get into this profession, the starting salaries will be kept low, and the pre-requisites high. It's a vocation - not a job; if you're giving up you clearly don't want it badly enough (or more likely you are not selling yourself properly...) Details Supplied (Ref- EXP-R16)
► Networking seems to be the way to get into the environmental or conservation sectors. Of course if you are brazen enough to be able to operate in this fashion then fair enough, but for us traditional thinkers there is a fundamental problem with this: for a start what ever happened to getting a job based on one's own merit and not on what 'a friend' says about you. After all a employee is under enough pressure starting a new job without having to prove his/herself according to what a third party tells the boss!! Or maybe I am missing something and life isn't stressful enough. I know networking is very common but it seems to have taken on an entity of its own and snowballing out of control. I prefer to look on these sectors like Fraternities and networking as the Initiation, so I don't really have much hope!! Seriously though, the projections for the growth in the environmental or conservation sectors isn't promising. The figures are not for the faint-hearted, but it explains a lot. The best plan of action seems to be in setting up a trade union. Well good luck to all! I am looking abroad for a job. Details supplied: (Ref: EXP-R17)
►On 11/2/04 (following on from 4/3/03) Hopefully a bit more good news to follow the stuff I posted earlier. I've been working part-time as a countryside ranger for about a year. Its been the best year ever, I only work at weekends and Bank Holidays, but it is the perfect antidote to my everyday temporary office job. I firmly believe that this experience will give me the opportunity to seek full time work. I've also started an MSC in Environmental Management. What I am learning as well as all the practical stuff and experience is firstly that you've got to network and meet people. I learned about this job when I went chatting to a ranger, and discovered we'd been to the same university. So use all your contacts. Secondly make yourself as employable as possible, as well as doing the rangering, I volunteer as an instructor with the Air Training Corps. This gives you educational experience. The post grad course will hopefully help as well. Thirdly, if you keep banging your head against the wall long enough…... eventually you will get through it. Good Luck to you all, I hope to work with some of you excellent like minded folk in the future. Details supplied (Ref: EXP-R18)
►TW from Aberystwyth says on 13/2/04: I graduated two years ago after obtaining a 2.1 in Bsc countryside management. I have been searching for job opportunities in the field of conservation, but have not had much luck. One of the reasons is that I do not have much experience in the field including voluntary work. This is down to a number of reasons, firstly I have been living on my own since the age of 15 which meant that I had to work to pay the rent, and secondly I cannot get the valid experience as no one will employ me. I have other qualifications such as c6 years of horticulture experience (Concentrating on wildlife and naturalistic areas) including having my own business, I also have a number of other qualifications, and my interests reflect my passion for the countryside. I do not like to moan, but is it just me or have other people been in similar circumstances, and if so what are you doing now. (Ref EXP-R19)
► From what I have read of peoples difficulty of getting jobs in the conservation sector, I am hardly surprised, simply because most of you seem to go on about degrees until you are blue in the face. Degrees are all well and good if you are trying for a job that defiantly requires a degree. But if you are interested in hands on environmental work, you simply haven't a hope in hell of getting a job without any long term experience. I myself have not done a degree, and most of the wardens I have met do not have a degree either, most of them have actually advised me to do practical experience as opposed to a degree. You must think by now that I am a degree hater. Admittedly if you have a degree and relevant experience it will certainly help. As far as getting things like certificates like chainsaws etc. I can't stress how important that these are. A very good way of getting these for free are to do long term placements with organisations, who will also supply accommodation. As far as supporting yourself financially, the only way I found it possible was to either work at weekends, or to sign on. Any of you who have tried to sign on and have been unable to because although you are working full time but for no fee, I know it has happened to me, you are entitled to benefit as long as you are actively seeking employment. I have so far done 10 months voluntary experience and have gained valuable hands on reserve experience plus chainsaw, tractors & ATV certificates all for no cost bar living expenses. Only the cost of living expenses I hear you say ! At the end of the day you are investing in your future so really it is very minimal cost , and is the only way you can get into the conservation sector. Happy volunteering. Details Supplied (Ref: EXP-R20) In reply on 17/6/04: It's all very well to say that degrees aren't relevant and training costs are minimal: but what if you come from a lower income background? The comment just above simply proves others' points about this industry being restricted to the upper middle classes. Trust me, I'm still amazed that I managed to get a PhD with no family support! And that PhD is a North American one: I had work for 5 years, not 3, to get it. I also had to manage budgets, projects and staff as part of my training, but employers refuse to see that! They just see "PhD = clueless academic!" And with all due respect to contributors without degrees, there's a lot more to a degree than simply passing exams, or so I've been telling the undergraduates I taught for 5 years as part of my own PhD training. It's time the industry woke up to what it is that a good academic experience actually give a potential employee. There's only so much training and volunteering that you can justify, and in this industry, the expected levels of training and volunteering are frankly unrealistic. I spent nearly a decade training full-time to get into this industry, and yet I still struggle to so much as get an interview. Details supplied (ref: EXP-R20-A)
► CP, Yorks says: The environment sector is the only non-charitable sector that requires virtually all potential employees to have had some voluntary experience. I have yet to see voluntary actuaries, lawyers, nurses etc. slaving away, hoping to get enough experience acceptable to their profession. If we stopped volunteering, hopefully it will bring the industry to its knees or realise that it is going about things the wrong way. (Yes, I too have a degree and experience - at my own expense - but apparently not enough to be acceptable). (Ref: EXP-R21)
► PP from the WirralI adds: I have just read your web discussion page for the first time and I am not surprised at the frustration that I detect at those who have engaged in many of the more academic courses in their pursuit of employment in their chosen careers. I am now self-employed as a tree surgeon although my desire to become a forester has always been thwarted. Having gained a degree in this discipline I found the university set-up geared to be as unhelpful as possible and far removed from providing the practical skills essential to be considered for a role in the industry. Even years later whilst attending an arboricultural short course at a college in Lancashire I was appalled at the poor delivery - what hope for those who wish to develop? Unfortunately for me all the academic qualifications count for nought and although I have practical skills in many fields, specific relevant experience added to my age excludes me. My advice is for anyone wishing to gain entry into a countryside job is get practical experience whilst one is young be it through volunteering , joining a practical working group or charity, pestering a farmer or land owner to help, or whatever. Then worry about the paper! And if one is thinking about becoming a mature student think long and hard about your level of experience before embarking on the more academic courses as a route to a new job in the countryside. (Ref: EXP-R22)
► KN from the Highlands would like to let people know: I know lots of people struggle to get all the vocational qualifications required by employers e.g. first aid, brushcutter, chainsaw etc. I recently discovered that you can get an ILA (individual learning account) in Scotland which gives up to £200 towards approved training courses if you earn less than £15,000 or are unemployed. I used it to get my first aid certificate, and got my first rangering job two months ago! Turned out one of their most important requirements was this qualification (and the inevitable vol work etc of course!). You can get £200 every year, so the sooner you apply, the sooner you can re-apply for more! www.ilascotland.org.uk (ref: EXP-R23)
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