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New thread on a similar note: I graduated in Ecology in 2002 I agree that students simply are not taught essential skills for conservation. New Thread on 30/8/05. What chance of employment during and after training. Latest addition -
Colleges and Training – what are the colleges telling students? I've read some of the pieces in other sections and something that occurs to me is what are the colleges/uni.'s telling students? We have got a student on work placement for a national diploma in countryside management at the moment. I was amazed to find out that they do not get taught chainsaw or tractor use as a standard part of the course, but seem to spend a large amount of time studying business management. I am wondering if this is common across a lot of colleges and if so do the college really think their students will be qualified to enter countryside management on graduation? Details supplied. (Ref: CT) Replies: ►1. The emphasis is on management - not necessarily of countryside sites, but of visitors and employees. My Course trained me to be a junior to middle manager - but you can't get those jobs straightaway. Practical training is non-existent on BA courses, so I can't get in as a Ranger. Details supplied (Ref: CT-R1) In reply to CT-R1, GK of Cambs says: This is my suggestion and I may be talking rubbish, but it worked for me and at least a couple of other people who I studied with. After finishing my degree, (in Rural Resource Management), I found myself in much the same situation: loads of theory, no real skills. To try and fix this I spent a year at Merrist Wood near Guildford studying for a National Certificate in Countryside Management, very little theory and loads of practical skills such as chainsaws and tractors with the certificates to go with them. No guarantees, it costs, but it is going in slightly the right direction. The only other thing I can think of is looking out for the long term volunteer placements which will get you the skills you need. (Ref: CT-R1A) From author of CT-R1. The comment that I made earlier was that courses in universities give no practical training - I am currently doing exactly as is suggested by the replier. However the fact that courses do cost yet more money will be a barrier to some people who need the practical training and cannot get good volunteer work locally, and may not be able to move away from home to do so. (ref: CT-R1B) ►2. On 2/10/02: The degree course in countryside management I just finished seemed to be thrown together in a haphazard way. In my opinion much of the content of a "countryside" course depends upon the lecturers available, their own specialisations and interests. In my particular course about a third of it was based upon community development, admittedly an important aspect of much rural work, but in this case vastly overweighted, and of little use to graduates at entry level to this career. I also got the impression that because of staff shortages (budgetary restraints) highly irrelevant modules (or at best tenuously relevant modules) were part of the course, to give some impression of choice. For example on my course there was a module on "energy and the environment" which involved twelve weeks of studying fast breed reactors and the laws of thermodynamics and two weeks of alternative energy and environmental effects of such. Perhaps the key is to thoroughly investigate in minute detail al l aspects of any course you intend to take up. Details supplied (Ref: CT-R2) ►3. EY in the North East says: I have studied a ND with countryside modules and have friends on Rural Skills courses. It depends alot on where you study. My college did tractor and chainsaw courses, a huge range of practical skills training as it was a working farm. I have noticed a lack of practical skills in the Degree course I am now studying. If you can’t do it you wont keep a job in it! I volunteer on top of my Degree wherever possible to gain relevant skills not covered by my course!! The Degree programme should be written by a fellow Countryside worker who understands what is required!! (Ref: CT-R3) Λ ► 4. MW of Leicester says: I am a Lecturer at a College that offers Countryside courses. The content of the ND courses is set be the awarding bodies e.g. Edexcel (!!!) City and Guilds. However, Colleges also can offer additional qualifications such as machinery - I think what is offered will depend on the college's facilities. On our ND course, this years students have already spent 1 or 2 years in college and have already done tractor driving etc. By comparison over a 1 week period, only 5% of the time is spent on a module entitled Business Planning. I think part of the problem is that a lot of employers are more familiar with degrees (many of them have done them) rather than ND, NC, FD etc. A lot will take a higher qualified candidate (in my opinion), but also one who can 'do'. I could go on about this topic but would probably get cut off! [not by CJS! – please go on…] Ref : CT-R4) MW of Leicestershire continues on 1/11/02: I do not think it is the nature of degree courses to provide large amounts of practical experience - they are academic/theory courses. However here is the dilemma - I think most employers do not really understand what FD, NC, and ND mean as most will have done a degree. Certainly, until I worked in FE (after 5 years as a Ranger and 1.5 for a conservation charity) I did not understand what they meant and how they fitted in. Most employers therefore define 'relevant qualification' as a degree (some will include an HND or NVQ). Therefore they are asking people for qualifications which contain no practical experience but also asking for practical experience. I don't know if the industry will ever solve this problem, unless education institutions can offer recognised qualifications of a high enough level which include significant amounts of practical experience which would satisfy a potential employer. I suppose this would mean that to be a 'Ranger' you would have to do a 'R anger' degree in the same way that to be a doctor or lawyer you have to do those degrees (but do these not include practical experience?) Also, is there a view out there from 'Rangers' that "I had to do voluntary work to get my experience so I don't see why applicants today shouldn't have to"? I don't know if I've helped the discussion along any, and I've probably argued myself round in circles. Unfortunately, I don't know if there is a immediate solution to this one. (Ref: CT-R4i) Λ ► 5. AS, Aberystwyth says: We [Aberystwyth Uni] have an HND in Countryside Management which I conceived in 1988 after working for Dartmoor National Park. A key philosophy is that countryside managers of the future must have practical skills. Hence we have them in our course. Students are then able to transfer to a degree afterwards and use both practical and academic and employment skills (placement) to get that elusive job. (ref: CT-R5) On 1/3/05 - Having three yrs voluntary work and a HND under my belt, plus a few other bits, I have started out on my own, contractor, one might say. I have found a very strange world. In the name of conservation I have probably done more damage than good. From the local authorities come reams of paper, with fine print and spec that don’t generally match the work or change. As imp sure most of you would agree, one has to be flexible in this industry. I have been trading for about 3yrs now, and my biggest problem is competitive tender. It is very difficult to quote competitively for works that vary, both in spec and materials. The other part of the problem is that everyone wants it at the same time, and this leads to large fluctuations in workload, making it difficult to hire any one on a regular basis. Coupled with this is that generally, its hard work, in bad weather, in difficult terrain and due to many variables wages paid are minimal (satisfies minimum wage) sadly, this only attracts average labour, and then most complain about pay and conditions and don’t stay long. My suggestion here is that maybe, the agencies should revert to employing people on a regular basis. there are many well qualified people, with a genuine interest in countryside management who realistically can not afford to work in the industry. So, armed with a PHD, we search for work, most graduates want to count species and fiddle with computers. so many managers and so few skilled in countryside crafts. I feel strongly that practical skill are essential, for managers and for species counters, I also feel that if some of these were trained in the discipline of practical estate skills and monitoring, with a little business management, slowly, a competent workforce would come into being, as opposed to the mess countryside management in currently in. That is, of course, if a greater value is placed upon practical skills. having a regular workforce that knows the site must surely be the best value for money. Details Supplied (Ref: CT-R5A) ► 6. While attending university studying for a countryside related degree, our lecturers would constantly remind students that the degree they were studying for was not enough to get a paid position in countryside management. It wasn't because students weren't aware of the need to do voluntary work and gain additional skills, they just weren't prepared to devote their spare time. Students are also in the best position to gain voluntary experience because they have the spare time needed and are also financially supported. Details Supplied. (Ref:CT-R6) ► 7. SY of Shropshire says: Any type of countryside course has a mountain to climb, because the subject is incredibly broad, covering subjects from countryside law to woodland management. Its seems that practical tuition has suffered as a result. I believe that every student needs a basic grounding in practical skills to decide if they enjoy it, not everybody likes to try to erect a fence in driving rain! However it takes many years to master any aspect of estate management or green wood craft, so the only way forward is through voluntary work, and if you get good enough, self employment is always an option. It would be nice to see some kind of funding to promote long term apprentice schemes, especially in the form of traditional woodland management and green wood crafts. I'm now a self employed coppice worker, my HND may not provided my chainsaw license, but the limited practical instruction was an essential part of the course. (Ref: CT-R7) ► 8. NH of East Yorkshire says: I am a student at an agricultural college at the moment, studying a BSc in Countryside Management, but have worked as a countryside ranger for three years previous both paid and voluntary, the way into the game is voluntary work, it's the only way to get the practical knowledge I have found. (Ref: CT-R8) ► 9. MW of Scotland says: It seems to me that HND courses vary immensely as to importance placed on practical issues. As a graduate from College I spent my final year with 5 out of the 14 on the course effectively doing nothing on the practical side apart from driving tractors round and round in circles!! This was meant to be a compulsory module but the majority of students were not interested nor was our so called lecturer. Any similar stories would be received with interest. (Ref: CT-R9) ► 10. On 4/3/03: I'm currently studying an ND in countryside management and am finding that there is a definite lack of practical skills, and too much theory. Also often too much focus on one aspect, heathlands in our case, they maybe local to us but a knowledge of other habitats is also going to be of use. Details supplied. (Ref: CT-R10) ► 11. JM of East Yorks says: I completed a HND in Countryside Management at Bishop Burton last Year. We had a theory/practical split of 60/40 with the emphasis being on Countryside theory and business. The practical side gave me the relevant skills but not the useful qualifications ie Chainsaw/Bushcutter certificates. I was lucky enough to get a 4 month contract with Bucks Country Parks immediately after college. This job was appealing because it offered training for bushcutters. Friends who had taken ND courses before starting their Degrees/HNDs informed me that they had been able to gain their chainsaw licences for a reduced fee (it might have been £25-50!!). When fellow students enquired about doing the chainsaw training they were told that it was no longer at a special lower fee and that they would have to pay full whack. The point that I am trying to make is that it would surely make more sense for 'full' training to be given to students and verified by the licencees for a reduced fee. In this way the countryside management sector would get a better worker 'all round', armed with both theory and practical skills. It would also save money since the new employee would have less to spend on additional training. Is it not about time that the big training providers woke up and saw the problems of charging their normal 'low cost' fees to hard up Students/Colleges? (Ref: CT-R11) ► 12. I work for a college as an Estate Ranger and Skills instructor. As one of my roles in this job I help run an NVQ in Environmental Conservation. This I open to all HND and Degree students Studying Environmental Qualifications. When I go out with this group they show very little willingness to learn skills like hedge laying, fencing and such like. They seem they want to gain a management qualification but are not willing to "get there hands dirty " to do it. This is the opposite for any of the Further Education groups I teach, they show willingness and enthusiasm to get out of the classroom at the drop of a forestry helmet. My point is that the opportunities are there, and available to them, but the students must be willing to take these opportunities and utilise them to get the most out of their course. Details supplied (ref: CT-R12) AS of Bucks says: On the first year of my BSc Rural Resource Management course we were given the opportunity to complete an NVQ in Environmental Conservation. However, most of us found it difficult to do necessary paperwork whilst at the same time having to complete academic assignments, particularly as some of the instructors and the external examiners were so unnecessarily 'picky' about the way record sheets were completed. Time and time again we would spend hours carefully writing record/evidence sheets out, only to be told to re-do them. As a result, NOT ONE of us, to my knowledge, completed the NVQ. (Ref: CT-R12a) ► 13. JM of Wilts says: I am 18 and live in Wiltshire, I have my Countryside Management Diploma, and just finished NVQ 1 In Countryside and Environment, and I have since 14 had volunteer experience with Rangers and at 15 worked in a garden centre weekends. BUT, I cannot gain experience of using a Chainsaw as I am not allowed by the College to use any such thing unless I either find a placement or employer who will agree to sign that they would "feel" competent me using a Chainsaw in there employ, if the college teaches me, if this is via a placement with them or ideally full time employment. But Employers seem interested in me as I have very good references but not when they hear I do not have my Chainsaw Licence. I have driven Tractors at College and am due to take my Car Test soon. But If I do not find placement or job for start of my (one day a week) NVQ 2 next year the College will not allow me to do the Chainsaw so I am stuck ! All I want is to work ! (Ref: CT-R13) I am surprised that JM of Wilts is having such problems. I am no chainsaw expert, but as far as I understand, an employer would not let you use a chainsaw unless you had the correct certification e.g. NPTC qualification. This is due to H&S legislation. Hypothetically it would be possible for a person with a chainsaw qualification to supervise one without, but I suspect most employers would not be happy about this. I would have thought that the College would understand this. I would also have thought that they would or could put on chainsaw training and assessment courses to get their students the correct qualifications, and either the student pays or the college does. However, I am surprised also that you cannot find an employer who will take you without a chainsaw qualification. Obviously, where chainsaw use is an integral part of the job e.g. tree surgery, the employer would find this essential, but even then I would expect most companies to train their employees up to the correct standard. When I got my first paid Ranger job, I had very few practical qualifications but had a degree and post-grad qualification. My first employer invested in me and put me through First Aid, chainsaw and other relevant qualifications. I would hope that any worthwhile employer would recognise a potential employee's potential, experience and qualifications and invest in any necessary training for them. After all, an employer cannot expect an employee to have every qualification they might ever possibly need. Details supplied (Ref: CT-R13A) ► 14. When NVQs were first mooted I was delighted. I thought that they would be the best thing since sliced bread. I am a practical countryside worker. Then I found that the running of the system was handed to the academic fraternity. Well, I got my level 3 qualification, but I went away from the course shaking my head in despair for the future of our countryside. One of my assessors had left due to stress (he was a true countryman), another had a breakdown, due to too much pressure to deliver on something that she knew Nothing About! She knew all about ticking boxes though! For those who teach in Colleges and are good at management And practical countryside skills - I salute you! For those who are good at teaching management - get some muck under your nails for a few years - and I might salute you as well! Details supplied (ref: CT-R14) ► 15. I co-ordinate practicals for an FE college. The ND and first diploma courses do not require certificated training in chain saws, strimmers or anything else. Certificated courses would have to be paid for from -where? Students do get some training in how to use strimmers and a certain amount of chain saw exposure as part of activities in managing vegetation. However, this would depend on what qualifications the practical tutors have themselves to be allowed to teach. I have been trying for about an hour to find any legal document that tells me what qualifications tutors are required to have , and can't find anything. Any ideas? Details Supplied. (Ref: CT-R15) ► 16. DH from Herts says: Ok, so I am currently studying towards my ND in countryside management at a college near London. I decided to choose this particular course after reading about the college's great reputation within the industry. However of the past 2 years I have found the course to be a shambles with little practical work and nothing that provides recognised qualifications such as NPTC's. Even the teaching of the theory leaves a lot up to the students own imagination and ability with google to complete the assignments. The work experience I have been undertaking whilst on the course is the only thing that hasn't meant I have wasted the last few years. Still when I finish next year I will be very self conscious going into an interview knowing that I'm not really prepared to yet take work in the industry. I can't afford to volunteer much or pay for my NPTC's on top of course fees so I can see myself having to Volunteer part-time for at least another 6 months just to get to a level I should have been at after the first term. There certainly is no need for the business management module at all and more focus on practical work (tractors, mowers, brushcutters, pesticides) would be great rather than spending hours writing assignments on funding issues and grants which isn't relevant at an entry level into the industry. (Ref: CT-R16)
► 17. Mounting a brief defence of my Bsc Countryside and Environment Management, I cannot speak for other universities but at mine the theory is thoroughly dealt with through the course itself, and a Student Union funded society deals providing practical training in path laying, stone walling, hedgelaying etc. It is up to the individual to take advantage of the many opportunities offered, which I think is an effective way of dealing with this problem. Details supplied (Ref: CT-R17)
► 18. On 21/11/06 T from Newcastle upon Tyne says: I'm currently in my last year of studying for a BSc in Countryside Management and have also found that there is very little attention given to the practical activities that are likely to be involved in the industry. There are a few opportunities to get volunteer experience which I have taken, but still don't feel equipped to do a "proper" job. While the course modules are varied, this removes attention to detail and depth. And now in my last year, I find it very hard to get any useful experience due to time constraints. This despite my university having 2 farms, and a leading dep. in rural studies. (ref: CT-R18)
► 19. On 23/11/06: Having been both a student and now a lecturer, I read with interest the comments regarding the variation in ND programmes across the country. I currently teach full-time on an ND programme in the south of England...a course that I feel provides essential knowledge for those wanting a job in countryside management. I totally understand the gripes that many students have about the theory/practical balance...however... The money it costs to provide NPTC Chainsaw training is huge.. about £450 just for basic maintenance/cross-cutting.. times this by 20+students and you're talking big money (maybe 10% of the total money the college gets per student).. and of course many will simply not pass. Is this effective financially? No. So, its not as simple as the college not being in tune with the needs of students and industry.. we are constantly constrained by finance! Also, in my experience, there are no jobs out there that simply require someone to work in the woods cutting down trees etc... today's countryside workers need to have a sound understanding of ecological/conservation theory to understand why habitats and species and people need managing...vocational does not mean practical! It means far more than that. I am certain that most ND courses seek to provide the necessary balance between practicals and the essential theory that industry requires... certainly the practitioners I've spoken to are looking for far more than 'hands-on' employees. OK, many students may feel let down, and in some instances this is probably justified, but without a deeper understanding of the theory how are they going to progress? And also, in this industry there are no black + white issues...debate and questioning of ideas and 'traditions' is all part of the game...does industry want us to churn out sheep or free-thinking individuals? Our students are always reminded that we cannot 'make' them into countryside managers, can't transplant a new 'countryside' brain into their heads.. its a two-way, proactive process that requires effort from both sides...use lecturers' knowledge, ask questions, do voluntary work, bother people, be enthused.. that's how to get ahead in this industry. Anyway, this debate is all good.. keep it up! Details supplied (ref: CT-R19)
► 20. On 31/5/07: I’m currently in the second year of a countryside management course. I think this course provides the best of a ND and a Degree as its taught alongside the Degree students (we effectively do the first 2 years of the degree with small differences) giving students a good academic education but also encompassing the more practical side of the ND with the practical estate skills module in the first year (one day practical every week) and the placement year, which I’m currently undertaking. However during my time on my placement I’ve come to realise the course has some serious flaws. The HND is advertised as the route to becoming a warden, yet we are offered no certification opportunities, which means we start our 9 months placement with no qualifications at all. This can lead to a very frustrating placement- unless your 'employer' is willing to get you trained up. The university presumes this will automatically be done, but in reality it seems to be pot luck. The lucky ones get a whole host of tickets over the year and come out of it fairly well qualified (that'll be me) but others come out of it without a single ticket and a pointless 9 month period where the most damage they could do was with a bow saw and loppers. If the placement year is intended as giving us 'experience as a warden', students should be given a head start with at least one or two tickets to make them useful to their employers. Otherwise you run the risk of spending your placement as nothing more than a volunteer with limited use in the workplace. We were taught 'brushcutter use' in our practicals (incidentally it was actually a clearing saw) yet can't touch one in the workplace without a brushcutter ticket, which we don’t have. Chainsaw is a big tick in the old CV, but it isn’t offered at Uni. My employers this year have been surprised by just how little training we are given compared to college based HNDs. Another problem is money- the government refuses to allow a full student loan during placement years, ignoring that the majority of countryside students work for a charity and only 1 in 100 gets a paid position for the duration. Instead we are expected to live off HALF of our calculated entitlement for the entire year- not easy. if the government decides you are only entitled to £2,000 a year (half the £4,000 loan available), during your placement year you are expected to live off only £1,000. For me this has been made even more difficult after falling ill just as my placement came to an end. I was lined up with a seasonal job for the summer on the same estate as my placement and then ended up in hospital- I’ve been declared unfit to work for a good few months, my overdraft is at its limits and I’m not allowed to claim benefits! right now I’m not sure how I’m going to cope- it shouldn’t be like that. My final problem is with the content of the courses themselves, I arrived at my placement with virtually no ID skills at all - and am only just getting to grips with it almost a year later. How the Degree students will ever be able to do their jobs properly when they can’t identify a tree I’m not entirely sure. These types of things may not be worthy of space in the course scheme, but should be offered to us in an extra curricular form - its essential to the field of work! I fully understand the lack of space in course schemes, but I feel the universities need to cater for practical skills and identification in some form, preferably with assisted funding as not many people can afford the £700 price tag of a chainsaw course! Details supplied (ref: CT-R20)
A variation on a theme: New on 19/11/03: AF, Aberdeen says: I graduated in Ecology in 2002 knowing very well just how awful the job prospects are. I agree that students simply are not taught essential skills for conservation. I remember being on a field course (parasitology admittedly where botanical knowledge is hardly a pre-requisite) and being surprised because when habitat detail was required for report writing everybody came to me for the lists of species present! Nobody else knew a Willowherb from a rosehip. This is hardly surprising when you consider that academic teaching is conducted between September and June (and May and June are spent feverishly studying) and over the months when students should be coming to grips with the field identification of species they are in summer jobs. It would be wonderful if there was a dedicated natural sciences university which operated over the summer and taught us how to do things like NVC phase I and II surveys, use of GIS and more mundane jobs like driving tractors, operating chainsaws etc. Perhaps such an institution could operate alongside existing universities and only during the months July-September or, better still, they could provide year round training with their holidays during ecological insignificant times of year! Existing universities are rather limited in their teaching opportunities towards the fields of research interest of their lecturers. So it is that a typical zoology graduate at Aberdeen university might know all about African Hunting Dogs and a little of how to manage a tropical logging operation with minimal damage to ecosystems but still not know a House Sparrow from a Reed Bunting! In reality many total amateurs have much more expertise than graduates so what on earth are our grants for? I'm so glad I didn't have to pay tuition fees for the glorified toilet paper that my mother would like to see framed and put on her wall (my degree certificate)! Before I can afford to volunteer and gain experience in conservation I will have to pay of my debts and save some money in a more down to earth job but sadly my degree has deprived me of the opportunity of becoming a better toilet cleaner and I am not employable! Aarrghhh. (Ref: UNI) CJS - This is similar to Colleges and Training - What are colleges telling their students? Please read both, if, in the future, there is substantial cross over we will merge the two threads. In reply: PS from Cheshire says: I read with interest the previous articles about more 'task specific' training at universities. Whilst at school I learned of the National Trusts careership scheme, a three year modern apprenticeship scheme which combined full time paid (all be it not much) work with college training. I gained full time employment as a grade 9 warden with the trust before the end of the scheme. Why this type of vocational study is not more common in an essentially practical discipline a mystery to me. However I am becoming increasingly worried about the amount of jobs calling for a degree and failing to recognise the importance/significance of a three year apprenticeship directly in the industry. (Ref: UNI-R1) ►SM in Cheshire says: I am currently studying at an Advanced NC countryside management Reaseheath college in Nantwich the course is very much theory based but we as a course do a lot of team work in the field the theory is there so that you can get your piece of paper that says that you know this information but even with this it is still hard to find places in to universities and jobs. I have an ATV licence but that probably won't help that much with getting into a good job as the market is very competitive. (Ref: UNI-R2)
New Thread on 30/8/05. What chance of employment during and after training. MW from Durham says: I am a student at Kirkly Hall college part of Northumberland college. I'm currently getting ready to start my second year and I would just like to say that I have been taught how to drive a tractor and chainsaws. I thought this was standard across the diploma courses. I will be doing business management this current year but I have a lot of experience of writing report from my first year. My only concern now is finding a job part time mainly at weekends while doing my second year. This is a concern because there is no recruitment going on in my area for a weekend warden, what is there for students to give us the incentive to carry on with our studies, or go on to full time work if we get the chance? (Ref: CTE) ► CC from Surrey says: I recommend any person who is looking to gain practical experience in conservation to look up BTCV who offer Voluntary Officer placements. As the name suggests it is voluntary but you get the opportunity to attend a lot of useful practical courses whilst running and supervising volunteers on practical task days/projects. All the course are certified by a national body. Hopefully at the end of your placement (typically 6 months) you will have gained enough skills to enter paid employment. Usually during the placement all your expenses in your journey to and from your voluntary work will be reimbursed. Similarly why not try you local Friends of ..... Group as I'm sure they would be dying for people with knowledge to help them out and you could gain practical experience from other members. (ref CTE-R1) ► SH from the South West says… I have been a countryside manager for 25 years and have recently become a part time lecturer on an ND course covering Business Management. Very few students seem to have spent much time researching the course content or the career structure within the industry. If you are a countryside manger you are first and foremost a manager, not a technician be that either a tractor driver, tree surgeon, ecologist or whatever. Managers take responsibility and have the skills to achieve management objectives. They need to have a wide range of practical and supervisory experience but above all they have to have a hunger for taking responsibility. If this isn’t you go on another course. Become the countries best chainsaw operator or habitat surveyor, there will be plenty of countryside managers who will want to buy your skills. Our industry is maturing and requires high standards of productivity at all levels. The old days of the public/voluntary sector jack of all trades warden are almost! over. I sympathise with the countryside contractor trying to complete management tenders. Very few managers have the skills to produce a good tender document even though it is a key part of their work. They are still confused as to what their role actually is. (Ref: CTE-R2)
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